BOOS Hurting Us

[Akzle]

Maybe we can take this topic you kicked off, in a slightly different direction then Pete?...:

-or- instead of tarring a certain population because of a possibly relevant behaviour (ergo possibly irrelevant), we could assess their competency on an individual basis.

while most of it IS perishable skills, and competency is developed through practice, to automatically assume someone who rides a hardley/stays warm in winter/prefers dunhill blue is a lesser operator for it, is just that: an assumption.


personally. i treat every other road user as a potential c*ssina. until they demonstrate otherwise.

[rastuscat]

Maybe we can take this topic you kicked off, in a slightly different direction then Pete?

Was talking with one of my trainees yesterday on a related topic, he'd identified (not entirely accurately I might add) that a lot of Harley riders struggled with corners. So when we'd done our debrief at the end of our ride, we got back to the comment he'd made with some passion. Now I don't necessarily disagree with him that there are a good number of Harley riders who struggle to make good progress on twisty bits of road. Been out with a certain chap on a Road King that same day, and he certainly knew how to make progress around bends...

The BOOS syndrome you started has another component that may need pointing out. I'm possibly going to get shot down for this, but I reckon there are bike riders and then there are guys with bikes. We all know them, for they come out every summer. Rego on hold for the winter, then come summer the bike gets dusted off and into the wild blue yonder the guys with bikes go...some are Harleys for sure, but in fairness there's plenty of sportier bikes that struggle with bendy bits of road, when piloted by a certain class of rider. And that class of rider certainly exhibits the BOOS symptoms.

By comparison, take a year round rider and the skills stay crisp and it sure as heck shows.

My five cents

That's worth at least 10 cents.

It'd be interesting to see the correlation between the crash rate and the seasons. That'd confirm your hypothesis, I expect.

[caspernz]

to automatically assume someone who rides a hardley/stays warm in winter/prefers dunhill blue is a lesser operator for it, is just that: an assumption.

Well you know Akzle, you've jumped to a bit of a conclusion there...you didn't read what I wrote aye? My trainee had the Harley = slow cornering mindset. I corrected that to a somewhat less biased mindset, can't walk him back to the straight and narrow in one fell swoop you know.

As you were

[Akzle]

Well you know Akzle, you've jumped to a bit of a conclusion there...you didn't read what I wrote aye? My trainee had the Harley = slow cornering mindset. I corrected that to a somewhat less biased mindset, can't walk him back to the straight and narrow in one fell swoop you know.

As you were

i read it that you thought part/summer time riders (the behavior i was referencing as irrelevant) were lesser mortals...

[FJRider]

It'd be interesting to see the correlation between the crash rate and the seasons. That'd confirm your hypothesis, I expect.

What would it actually confirm ... logic would dictate that if there were more riders on the road in summer ... more would be expected to be involved in an accident. As a riding instructor, which group of riders would you expect to be the larger of those involved in accidents ... The fast confident ones or the slower less confident ones ... ???

Would the accident causes be likely to be the same for both groups ... ??

[Voltaire]

In this thread is ABS and acronym for what Axley spouts?

Oh red rep Rob.....did you tell a Mod too? "*clicks "view post"* *regrets*. one'd think you'd get tired of being lame. obvs nt. so, like, go tuck yourself in."

[awayatc]

It's all about time in saddle and practice.
People like Rastuscat will be better riders then me.

I go to sea for weeks on end and then have all sorts of things to catch up on.... riding being just one of them.

Every time I get back on the bike I know that I need to re familiarise myself again.

Some of the basics I have to very deliberately do and critically analyse. ...
After a few days of that I feel back in control.
Riding courses are very helpfull.
When you can't or don't self criticise anymore you risk becoming a statistic

[Ulsterkiwi]

Well worth practicing for panic braking - on a clear empty straight road.

Stage braking requires some self control to resist the urge in a panic situation to just 'grab a handful' of the brake lever in one action squeeze the dear life out of it. This creates a shock to the whole bike's composure and could send you straight into skidding or a stoppie. Neither of which will do stuff all to reduce your speed. Certainly when leaned or wet it will dump you.

The better way is to;
first apply a gentle squeeze- just enough to smoothly transfer the bike + rider weight towards the front wheel and to firm up the forks, which will in turn press down on the front tyre and increase the size of the contact patch. This is just for 1.0 to 1.5 seconds (depends on how little time you have before impact!
Second stage is increase pressure on the lever i.e. squeeze harder - but still not maximum force if you can resist the urge. Now the front tyre really starts to GRIP, very important that, and what you really need instead of skidding.
Third stage - full tit squeeze on the lever. , a second or two later and you can now go for broke and squeeze the hell on the lever. By now the tyre has reached it's maximum ability to GRIP, the bike has some degree of composure. This is what ABS does but by giving the lever progressive steps you help the ABS do it's job even better.

When I first experimented doing stoppies this is just what you needed. Get the forks compressed into a 'stiffy' and the front tyre spread for maximum grip before the big squeeze.

Another way to explain it would be if your measured how much effort you applied when squeezing the brake lever at 1 for the lightest of touches and 10 absolute hard as possible. Then you would squeeze lever a second each at say 3, then 6 then 10.

I like your description. The thing I will pick up on is "depends on how little time you have before impact" I defy anyone with half a brain cell to explain to me after thinking about this that its smart, acceptable, good riding technique or even remotely not idiocy to ride so close to the arse of the vehicle in front of you you can read their WOF sticker. I see this happening EVERY SINGLE DAY. People on bikes paying absolutely no regard to how close they are to the vehicle in front or how long it will take them to react never mind begin braking effectively.
As I said, I like your description and is a terrific skill to work on and to practice so you can retain it. However, without giving yourself time to use the technique its all academic really. First and foremost (for me anyway) is good forward observation, that will give you space and time to call on all your other skills. What you talked about uses up well over 2 seconds once you include a response time. Too short a following distance simply does not allow that amount of time.

[george formby]

I like your description. The thing I will pick up on is "depends on how little time you have before impact" I defy anyone with half a brain cell to explain to me after thinking about this that its smart, acceptable, good riding technique or even remotely not idiocy to ride so close to the arse of the vehicle in front of you you can read their WOF sticker. I see this happening EVERY SINGLE DAY. People on bikes paying absolutely no regard to how close they are to the vehicle in front or how long it will take them to react never mind begin braking effectively.
As I said, I like your description and is a terrific skill to work on and to practice so you can retain it. However, without giving yourself time to use the technique its all academic really. First and foremost (for me anyway) is good forward observation, that will give you space and time to call on all your other skills. What you talked about uses up well over 2 seconds once you include a response time. Too short a following distance simply does not allow that amount of time.

Following distance is a biggie. I like expansive views.
Having said that I have laid a bike down rather than hit a vehicle seated. It was a big truck trying to get out of a narrow road onto a narrow road at night. By the time I realised what I was going to hit stopping was not an option. Plan B was an "oh fuck lie down" and pray to ATGATT.

[release_the_bees]

I defy anyone with half a brain cell to explain to me after thinking about this that its smart, acceptable, good riding technique or even remotely not idiocy to ride so close to the arse of the vehicle in front of you you can read their WOF sticker.

That's my biggest frustration with the driving population in general. It's no exaggeration to say that 90%+ of those on the road are following too closely to the vehicle in front, and don't even get me started about wet weather following distances.

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.

During the morning commute, it's not really even an option to let the tailgater past, because they're just replaced by another tailgater - there's an endless stream of them! One morning, it was raining, so I maintained a four second gap. In the lane next to me, my four second gap was populated by three vehicles. No wonder there's so many multiple vehicle nose to tails - in fact it's amazing that there isn't more of them.


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[rastuscat]

That's my biggest frustration with the driving population in general. It's no exaggeration to say that 90%+ of those on the road are following too closely to the vehicle in front, and don't even get me started about wet weather following distances.

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.

During the morning commute, it's not really even an option to let the tailgater past, because they're just replaced by another tailgater - there's an endless stream of them! One morning, it was raining, so I maintained a four second gap. In the lane next to me, my four second gap was populated by three vehicles. No wonder there's so many multiple vehicle nose to tails - in fact it's amazing that there isn't more of them.


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I may love you. Depends on if you voted for Winston or not, really.

[Moi]

That's my biggest frustration with the driving population in general. It's no exaggeration to say that 90%+ of those on the road are following too closely to the vehicle in front, and don't even get me started about wet weather following distances.

Not that it's a bad thing, but I find myself constantly riding with at least a four to six second gap in front of me, so that I never have to panic brake and risk being flattened by the vehicle following too closely behind.

During the morning commute, it's not really even an option to let the tailgater past, because they're just replaced by another tailgater - there's an endless stream of them! One morning, it was raining, so I maintained a four second gap. In the lane next to me, my four second gap was populated by three vehicles. No wonder there's so many multiple vehicle nose to tails - in fact it's amazing that there isn't more of them.

+1

I'm with you on this... Whether I'm riding or driving, I leave a gap that I like so I can see what's happening ahead - especially if you're following a "garden shed on wheels" [SUV], space to do stuff and do it without unsettling either myself or the car/bike.

I have a wee personal theory about tailgaters and it has nothing to do with sex. It's to do with advertising and lack of science understanding. The drivers have been told their car has all these fantastic electronic control systems that can do all these marvellous things to keep their car on the road going in the direction they want and at the speed they desire. And it will also stop their car in spectacular fashion when they need to do so. And the drivers believe all of this and so drive faster than perhaps they should, much closer to the vehicle in front than is prudent and with less attention to what they are doing than is wise. And they do this because they didn't listen very carefully that day in general science when the teacher explained friction and adhesion and grip and how there's a relationship between those and the tyre on their car and the road surface and what can cause the tyre to not grip quite as well as it should due to the road surface being wet.

Or, I could suggest that those drivers are just shit drivers...

Somewhere on his channel, John Cadogan discusses braking and tyres and grip - https://www.youtube.com/user/AutoExpertTV/videos

[Akzle]

Or, I could suggest that those drivers are just shit drivers...

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in my observation of townies, they tailgate so "no-one gets ahead of them and slows them down" the same reason they need traffic lights to tell them how to merge fuckwits. (nT realising their shit attitude actually slows all traffic down, including them)

i always laugh when driving past nose to tails. (also nothing to do with sex) sometimes even clap.

and the operators have the nerve to look at me liek there's something wrong with ME? liek, hulloo, i'm not the dopey whore driving into shit.

as for those doing it on the open road? eep. they've obvs never tried, and seen how long it takes them to stop, gadgets or no.

ban fuckwits. vote akzle.

[nerrrd]

Yeah I think the tailgating in Auckland is more down to not letting anyone queue jump and impatience than belief in the gizmos built into the car (although it may have subconsciously registered when they bought it I guess). In the rain it’s really scary how little most car drivers adjust their driving to suit, it is for me on the bike anyway.

And another thing a lot of bikers don’t seem to get that’s bad about tailgating is visibility – like when you’re waiting to turn right, the oncoming car is turning left, you start to turn and then out from behind the car pops a bike going straight through, no time to react, biker leans on horn thinking ‘f*ckn’ cager’ as you keep turning in front as you’re committed by now.

ie Plenty of space in front makes you more visible to others.

[george formby]

I concede that habitual tailgating in cities is a turf war, like defending your place in the queue when the Boxing Day sales are on.

Tailgating on the open road implies to me that the rider / driver's following distance is how far they are actually looking ahead. I guarantee that these tailgaters will also consistently brake in the middle of a corner because they are not looking far enough ahead to read the road and will speed up on overtaking lanes as their view increases. All done obliviously.

It's a bit of a game for me. If I'm following traffic that is doing the concertina disco with their brake lights I measure my following distance by not having to brake at all, just lift off the gas. I do have to consider the vehicle sitting a few feet off my arse, though, and give them a couple of brake light flashes when I shut the throttle. Just in case..