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Thread: Counter-steering, an unhelpful term

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamA View Post
    By now almost everyone riding a bike must know about so called COUNTER-STEERING unless they're an absolute novice. Most others will also know how it works and why. A few might even know how it got the name. Many more, but not everyone, will know that we all do it all the time whether we realise it or not or our bikes wouldn't start to turn, even the ones which require you only to think, turn, to start the turn and it'll do it.

    I prefer to call the phenomenon PUSH-STEERING, because it's what we really are doing. I want to turn to the left so I push forward on the left 'bar. For right it's the opposite. Even after riding for so long I still do it consciously whenever I want to initiate a rapid change of direction and just before coming to a complete stop so that the bike will cant slightly towards the foot I intend to put on the ground.
    How about this: We don't actually steer the bike, we use the bar inputs to control the lean angle and then the bike steers itself. If you need to turn harder then you make the bike lean over more and it will turn harder. Not that you need to consciously think about this.

    Anyone that rides a bicycle or motorcycle automatically does the right thing to make it steer. The example posted (with scary video) of the biker not turning the right way has nothing to do with not counter-steering, it is an example of target fixation - the rider should have focused on the gap and aimed for it instead of focusing on the obstacle and panicking. Saying that he should have cognitively understood counter steering is absolute nonsense, he didn't have time to think anyway, his instinctive reactions were not correctly trained.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkH View Post
    How about this: We don't actually steer the bike, we use the bar inputs to control the lean angle and then the bike steers itself. If you need to turn harder then you make the bike lean over more and it will turn harder. Not that you need to consciously think about this.
    Yes this is pretty much what happens. I think that riding a push bike and a motor bike are slightly different. Most of us learn on push bikes where our weight is comparable to the bike weight and so weight shifting causes the bike to turn with little input to the bars. A motor bike is much heavier and at any speed it is difficult to use weight alone to steer so some bar input is needed, as you said it is pretty automatic. All you have to do is get the bike slightly off balance and the trail does the rest. Flipping the bike left to right quickly though needs quite a bit of levering on the bars and probably has to be learned.

    Cheers

  3. #33
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    I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering but it has grown into a discussion on all sorts of aspects of how bikes are steered. Whatever it's called, all we do when we push on a bar is to initiate a bank. After that, many bikes will follow a curving path on their own, but some, like my Buell require the pressure to be maintained to prevent the bike standing up and running straight.

    Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamA View Post
    I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering but it has grown into a discussion on all sorts of aspects of how bikes are steered. Whatever it's called, all we do when we push on a bar is to initiate a bank. After that, many bikes will follow a curving path on their own, but some, like my Buell require the pressure to be maintained to prevent the bike standing up and running straight.

    Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.
    Counter-steering is what it is and what it's called.

    It's equally 'Pull-Steering' as it is 'Push-Steering', but you are free to call it whatever you like. Don't be disappointed if you fail to get global acknowledgement and I wouldn't waste too much time and money on buying the domain names, to sell on

    Quite an infantile thread really

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamA View Post
    I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering
    I think we should call braking 'retardation' however I don't think it would work given some of the 'brakes' on KB.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamA View Post
    I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering but it has grown into a discussion on all sorts of aspects of how bikes are steered. Whatever it's called, all we do when we push on a bar is to initiate a bank. After that, many bikes will follow a curving path on their own, but some, like my Buell require the pressure to be maintained to prevent the bike standing up and running straight.

    Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.
    I hear ya. My post was not a shot at your topic, just tongue in cheek. Whatever you feel like calling it, it still needs to be explained how the the physics work.

    I've never ridden a Buell but it still has the same characteristics as other bikes but in different measures. That's why I mentioned trials bikes, you have to steer with the footrests, the handlebars are for attaching things too and controlling wheelies.

    All moving bikes stand up without rider input.

    Manopausal.

  7. #37
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  8. #38
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    Wheelies should be called motorcycle erections.

    I like braking being retardation as mentioned earlier.

    If braking while doing a wheelie you have a retarded erection.

    A surprise wheelie would clearly be a premature erection.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanB View Post
    Wheelies should be called motorcycle erections.

    I like braking being retardation as mentioned earlier.

    If braking while doing a wheelie you have a retarded erection.

    A surprise wheelie would clearly be a premature erection.
    Quite often i have to retard a premature erection. Which is a shame. I would like to keep it up for longer.
    Manopausal.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by george formby View Post
    Quite often i have to retard a premature erection. Which is a shame. I would like to keep it up for longer.
    Possibly a little of the OP's 'push-pull' could help with keeping it up?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanB View Post
    I like braking being retardation as mentioned earlier.
    So does that make acceleration counterbraking?

    Or am I retarded?

  12. #42
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    even if you are going below the speed that you dont need to steer the bike you can still use counter steering to transition from one side to the other.You dont tend to counter steer trials bike becuase you are ussually going below that speed where you dont need to "steer"

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GazzaH View Post
    So does that make acceleration counterbraking?
    Hmm - it would be counter-retardation. Thus not being a retard so this must mean acceleration is good (but not past buses - that is retarded).

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamA View Post
    By now almost everyone riding a bike must know about so called COUNTER-STEERING unless they're an absolute novice.
    I prefer to call the phenomenon PUSH-STEERING, because it's what we really are doing. I want to turn to the left so I push forward on the left 'bar. For right it's the opposite.
    Tell Keith Code, he might rewrite his books for you? Todays modern day crap does my head in. Another panadol please


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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamA View Post
    I started this thread to put forward the idea of calling counter-steering push-steering but it has grown into a discussion on all sorts of aspects of how bikes are steered. Whatever it's called, all we do when we push on a bar is to initiate a bank. After that, many bikes will follow a curving path on their own, but some, like my Buell require the pressure to be maintained to prevent the bike standing up and running straight.

    Yes, we all steer mostly un-consciously but when a situation demands it a firm push on a bar is far more effective.
    Sorry if you think I have derailed your OP.

    was trying to expand my knowledge about how far this method of steering can go.

    its that being able to commit to that extra, firm push I don’t currently have.

    myself I Prefer push steering, but countersteer is easier to identify with

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