And so it begins...

[TheDemonLord]

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/money/perso...dk7Q&ocid=iehp

As much as I loathe quoting MSN as a source, It's only taken 7 days for the knock on æffect of a minimum wage rise to start impacting the costs of goods and services. Which is namely one of the reasons why I'm generally against such a rise - everything ends up more expensive, and those on minimum wage end up right were they started.

So here's the question - is there another way that might actually work?

[jasonu]

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/money/perso...dk7Q&ocid=iehp

As much as I loathe quoting MSN as a source, It's only taken 7 days for the knock on æffect of a minimum wage rise to start impacting the costs of goods and services. Which is namely one of the reasons why I'm generally against such a rise - everything ends up more expensive, and those on minimum wage end up right were they started.

So here's the question - is there another way that might actually work?

Expect another price rise if/when the 5 week a year holidays gets in.

[RDJ]

Most of us worked at some time or another for below minimum wage. We learned to turn up, take orders, learn by seeing-then-doing, learned to get along with co-workers, learned discipline beyond that taught at home and school, and finally - sooner or later - learned (after a while) to add a value greater than what we cost our employer, t the goods we helped make or the services we helped provide. That's why a starting wage is a good idea. A minimum wage, not so much.

There is no way a minimum wage can add permanent jobs because paying people more than they are worth in terms of their labour is a good way to go broke. People can and do move up off the minimum wage.

But lefties and Labour and Greenies - but I repeat myself - never learn. They are always 'surprised' that their historically idiotic ideas fail again, and cause others problems. Who'd have thunk.

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/2...ge-costs-jobs/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael.../#7e9f05ed43b9

[oldrider]

http://www.msn.com/en-nz/money/perso...dk7Q&ocid=iehp

As much as I loathe quoting MSN as a source, It's only taken 7 days for the knock on æffect of a minimum wage rise to start impacting the costs of goods and services. Which is namely one of the reasons why I'm generally against such a rise - everything ends up more expensive, and those on minimum wage end up right were they started.

So here's the question - is there another way that might actually work?

Answer to your question - Yes there is!

[TheDemonLord]

Most of us worked at some time or another for below minimum wage. We learned to turn up, take orders, learn by seeing-then-doing, learned to get along with co-workers, learned discipline beyond that taught at home and school, and finally - sooner or later - learned (after a while) to add a value greater than what we cost our employer, t the goods we helped make or the services we helped provide. That's why a starting wage is a good idea. A minimum wage, not so much.

There is no way a minimum wage can add permanent jobs because paying people more than they are worth in terms of their labour is a good way to go broke. People can and do move up off the minimum wage.

But lefties and Labour and Greenies - but I repeat myself - never learn. They are always 'surprised' that their historically idiotic ideas fail again, and cause others problems. Who'd have thunk.

https://www.denverpost.com/2017/06/2...ge-costs-jobs/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael.../#7e9f05ed43b9

Hang on a sec though - the Left types DO have a point - It's bad for society if people end up with nothing, and no way to get out of it - this is a major driver for Crime and in it's worst case, you get revolution (a la French) - which never ends well.

It is something to be concerned with, but the Minimum wage seems more about opiating the masses than fixing the problem. The issue is - How DO you fix the problem?

[TheDemonLord]

Answer to your question - Yes there is!

I know where you are going with that, I don't want to derail this thread - I'll simply state - we've never seen that solution work in anything outside of a hunter-gatherer existence.

[MarkH]

It kinda makes sense to have a minimum wage so that even the low paid jobs are better paying than the dole.
But cranking up that minimum wage to $20/hr? When I heard that idea my thought was "gee, that's going to fuel inflation".

Now, why did I think that increasing wages would cause inflationary pressure? Well, how could it not? If it costs more to the supermarket for the pay to the staff then where will that extra money come from? Their only source of income is the margin on the goods they sell, so those extra costs have to come out of that - which means that they need to increase the margin to increase the income to pay the higher wages.

Do companies have any other options? Well, they could turn to automation and reduce staff numbers. In fact I have seen this in action, minimum wage staff being replaced by technology, as well as higher paid staff of course. Go in to almost any McDonalds and you will see less staff taking orders than there used to be a couple of years back, there are touch screen computers doing a lot of order taking - they cost a LOT less than a person.

So yeah, good one Labour. Put up the minimum wage. It's not like that will increase inflation and unemployment . . . wait . . . oh, shit - that's exactly what it will do.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Hang on a sec though - the Left types DO have a point - It's bad for society if people end up with nothing, and no way to get out of it - this is a major driver for Crime and in it's worst case, you get revolution (a la French) - which never ends well.

It is something to be concerned with, but the Minimum wage seems more about opiating the masses than fixing the problem. The issue is - How DO you fix the problem?

In Nu Zillin?

a flat tax for everyone (individuals, trusts, corporations) kicking it say $25k/yr. Call it 20%. Tax companies that make money here but repatriate the profits offshore (Google, Farcebook et al)

Universal basic income. Thats a win win because it allows you to dismantle massive government departments full of fuckwits/cost

All those people on unemployment and liberated from the gubblemunt departments I have just obliterated? Get them to work building houses. Yes, making another govt department. I am ok with that.

invest MASSIVELY in public transport

hugely increase environmental regulation. If it involves strangling fucking Font error - so be it.

[TheDemonLord]

In Nu Zillin?

Doesn't have to be - but let's entertain it

a flat tax for everyone (individuals, trusts, corporations) kicking it say $25k/yr. Call it 20%.

I'm down with that.

Tax companies that make money here but repatriate the profits offshore (Google, Farcebook et al)

Not a fan of Taxing the Internet tbh, once you start taxing something, you can claim ownership over it, once you claim ownership over it, you can start legislating on it.

I'm a bit of an Internet Anarchist.

Universal basic income. Thats a win win because it allows you to dismantle massive government departments full of fuckwits/cost

I've read a little on the UBI, I'll be honest - I'm really not convinced, partly for the same reason I think a Minimum wage rise is pointless, and partly because I haven't seen a set of hypothetical figures for a Country Wide scheme that would work - but if you got something like that, I'd love to have a look.

I'd also ask how the UBI would differ in terms of real-world effect, when compared to say a Pension (where an individual gets a set amount, with no relation to any work done, on the premise that it will allow them to live)

All those people on unemployment and liberated from the gubblemunt departments I have just obliterated? Get them to work building houses. Yes, making another govt department. I am ok with that.

Good idea - Will these be Houses dictated by a Government department or houses dictated by the Free Market?

invest MASSIVELY in transport

Agree

hugely increase environmental regulation. If it involves strangling fucking Font error - so be it.

In what way? In order to pay for something like the UBI, Business has got to be able to do business - adding extra compliance costs is likely to kill your economy dead, especially with a burden like the UBI.

Would you be looking to offset the regulations in this area with revoking additional regulation elsewhere? To promote innovation and growth?

[Crasherfromwayback]

Most of us worked at some time or another for below minimum wage. We learned to turn up, take orders, learn by seeing-then-doing, learned to get along with co-workers, learned discipline beyond that taught at home and school, and finally - sooner or later - learned (after a while) to add a value greater than what we cost our employer, t the goods we helped make or the services we helped provide. That's why a starting wage is a good idea. A minimum wage, not so much.

There is no way a minimum wage can add permanent jobs because paying people more than they are worth in terms of their labour is a good way to go broke. People can and do move up off the minimum wage.

But lefties and Labour and Greenies - but I repeat myself - never learn. They are always 'surprised' that their historically idiotic ideas fail again, and cause others problems. Who'd have thunk.

l]

Yeah, but that's because you're such a clever cunt. People less fortunate than your smart self, mentally, may never climb the dizzying heights you have, so will forever be stuck at the bottom of the wage pool. God forbid we pay them a decent wage, so that after being poor mentally, they don't have to be financially fucked too! And oh my fucking GOD!!!!! Your Latte will cost more! Just as well you can afford it as you're so fucking smart! Self centered cunt.

[jasonu]

Yeah, but that's because you're such a clever cunt. People less fortunate than your smart self, mentally, may never climb the dizzying heights you have, so will forever be stuck at the bottom of the wage pool. God forbid we pay them a decent wage, so that after being poor mentally, they don't have to be financially fucked too! And oh my fucking GOD!!!!! Your Latte will cost more! Just as well you can afford it as you're so fucking smart! Self centered cunt.

Not just your latte. Milk, bread, butter, veges, petrol, beer, faggs, all the every day stuff that adds to the already very high NZ cost of living.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Not just your latte. Milk, bread, butter, veges, petrol, beer, faggs, all the every day stuff that adds to the already very high NZ cost of living.

Well, if that's what I've gotta do to make shit better for people less fortunate than myself, so be it. I'll still live here. I actually don't mind helping people out you see.

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah, but that's because you're such a clever cunt. People less fortunate than your smart self, mentally, may never climb the dizzying heights you have, so will forever be stuck at the bottom of the wage pool. God forbid we pay them a decent wage, so that after being poor mentally, they don't have to be financially fucked too! And oh my fucking GOD!!!!! Your Latte will cost more! Just as well you can afford it as you're so fucking smart! Self centered cunt.

TBH - if it was just Luxury goods that went up in price, I wouldn't be that irritated by it - because in theory it would go some way to fixing the problem: The poor would have more money to spend and necessity goods would be more affordable for them.

Trouble is, that isn't what happens.

Hence the point of this thread.

[Crasherfromwayback]

TBH - if it was just Luxury goods that went up in price, I wouldn't be that irritated by it - because in theory it would go some way to fixing the problem: The poor would have more money to spend and necessity goods would be more affordable for them.

Trouble is, that isn't what happens.

Hence the point of this thread.

No, you're just feeling sorry for yourself because your trimsoylatte is 5 cents more expensive, and because you prob have 30 a day, it's gonna get hard to hide your addiction from your mrs.

[TheDemonLord]

No, you're just feeling sorry for yourself because your trimsoylatte is 5 cents more expensive, and because you prob have 30 a day, it's gonna get hard to hide your addiction from your mrs.

The hilarious thing about that statement is:

I don't drink coffee at all - can't stand the shit.