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Thread: Engagement With Motorcyclists

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    Voluntary organisations partly exacerbate the problem. If St John's went on strike, permanently, the govt would likely step into the gap. As long as voluntary organisations do stuff, the govt just steps back.

    It's a fine balance.
    It's a conundrum all right! Voluntary services usually come about in the first place because of a lack of central or local government support to fill a need. These organisations get good at the voluntary work they do and then run into resource issues (often of a monetary nature). Things get difficult through their own success.

    In country areas such as the Coromandel where I live, the region survives on voluntary services. No different in other rural areas. Our family is a financial supporter of some of those essential services, specifically Auckland and Waikato air ambulances, St John and Starship Hospital; simply because without them, we'd be screwed.

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    Voluntary organisations partly exacerbate the problem. If St John's went on strike, permanently, the govt would likely step into the gap. As long as voluntary organisations do stuff, the govt just steps back.

    It's a fine balance.
    problem is, the govt wont step in where its needed already as far as paramedic services are needed, a lot of rural type areas are already short on ambulance services. without volunteers, smaller communities miss out, if you look at the ambulance service in particular, it is becoming increasingly difficult to get volunteers to do the job, when an ambo is called people expect a full blown paramedic to turn up, lots of training for that and lots of time away from paid employment to turn out. add to that lots of crap to put up with from people who have no respect and lots of shit if things don't go quite right

    as volunteer fire fighters we turn out for serious medical emergencies only, personally I would train to PHEC standard only, im not interested nor do I have the time to train to paramedic level,

  3. #213
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    I've gone to a couple of the upskilling courses at Taupo Motorsport park that were subdidised by ACC a few years ago. The reason I went was to improve my riding, but also because we were able to use the track, which is a lot more fun than pootling around a carpark.
    Bring able to bundle some fun track time with some road skill training was really awesome, and if there were more of these events at a reasonable price I'd definitely sign up for further training.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinz0r View Post
    I've gone to a couple of the upskilling courses at Taupo Motorsport park that were subdidised by ACC a few years ago. The reason I went was to improve my riding, but also because we were able to use the track, which is a lot more fun than pootling around a carpark.
    Bring able to bundle some fun track time with some road skill training was really awesome, and if there were more of these events at a reasonable price I'd definitely sign up for further training.
    ACC used to be okay about paying for some track time, as long as it was part of a road safety event. Trouble is, put someone on a rack, and they want to go fast. No way around that. It's the reality.

    Now ACC don't pay for track stuff, just on-road stuff.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    ACC used to be okay about paying for some track time, as long as it was part of a road safety event. Trouble is, put someone on a rack, and they want to go fast. No way around that. It's the reality.

    Now ACC don't pay for track stuff, just on-road stuff.
    but once you learn to handle a bike at speed, the low speed stuff is much easier (except for walking pace maneuvers) in my opinion anyway --- season your brain with speed, then when you slow down your mind has a lot more "time" to process what's happening on the real road.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    ACC used to be okay about paying for some track time, as long as it was part of a road safety event. Trouble is, put someone on a rack, and they want to go fast. No way around that. It's the reality.

    Now ACC don't pay for track stuff, just on-road stuff.
    For this particular event, there was quite a focus on learning how to corner safely by practicing braking into corners, leaning, and choosing the correct line. The skills obtained during these sessions transferred very nicely to the road, and it was great being able to practice them in a safer environment. I think having access to the track made the training a lot more engaging and effective.
    Most of the track time was spent following an instructor around, copying lines etc, then talking about any problems and repeating to try and hone the skills. At the end of the day we had a few free sessions on the track, but most of it was spent learning and practicing.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scubbo View Post
    but once you learn to handle a bike at speed, the low speed stuff is much easier (except for walking pace maneuvers) in my opinion anyway --- season your brain with speed, then when you slow down your mind has a lot more "time" to process what's happening on the real road.
    In reality ... speed on a closed circuit race track is completely different to speed on an open road public highway. No oncoming traffic for a start.

    Perhaps ... to practice high speed riding on racetracks ... have a second other group practicing their high speed riding going in the other direction ....

    Who would like to be in that second group ... ??
    Sweat wipes off. Road-rash doesn't.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scubbo View Post
    but once you learn to handle a bike at speed, the low speed stuff is much easier (except for walking pace maneuvers) in my opinion anyway --- season your brain with speed, then when you slow down your mind has a lot more "time" to process what's happening on the real road.
    My five cents.

    You can get more "time to process" by looking further ahead.
    You can get more "room to move" by learning how to correctly position a bike for a given situation.
    You can create a safer riding environment on public roads by the choices you make.

    All the above needs to come before adding speed.

    It appears the folks at ACC came to the same conclusion.
    If the words I say offend you, imagine the ones I keep to myself...

  9. #219
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    that's true if you assume your brain runs at one speed only and you can't condition it to specific tasks --- but like all things ACC, lowest common denominator is the target. I guess not everyone is up to being an apache pilot

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scubbo View Post
    that's true if you assume your brain runs at one speed only and you can't condition it to specific tasks --- but like all things ACC, lowest common denominator is the target. I guess not everyone is up to being an apache pilot
    It's not about conditioning the brain, it's about getting the basics right before adding speed. Many riders can't even pick a safe line for a corner, letting them go faster will merely see them crash at a higher speed.

    Track based training has its place, I certainly enjoy it but it has to go hand in hand with road based coaching
    If the words I say offend you, imagine the ones I keep to myself...

  11. #221
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    Road training using a race track

    I've retired from most rider training activities now but when I was in charge of the Auckland Motorcycle Club's Rider training programme we used a number of tracks around the country for the purposes of rider training. My opinion is that it is easier and safer to teach the practicalities of cornering lines, braking, pillion riding and counter steering on a piece of tar seal where you don't have to worry about oncoming traffic, power poles, sheep and all of the other variables that occur on a piece of road. But the course needs to be focussed completely on road RIDER training and far too many such courses became road RACER training. There is a huge difference. Instructor ratios for the road rider courses that I used to run were 1 instructor to every 4 pupils and the motorcycle had to be fully road registered and up to WOF standards. And we ran on the tracks that we used in both directions because we were doing Rider training. The courses cost a fair bit of money - hiring Pukekohe for 16 students for the day was not cheap and the cost is probably now prohibitive. But when I was teaching road riding techniques it is my opinion that doing this on a piece of tarmac well away from the public was safer for everyone. Including the public.
    Sadly, most track days now appear to have limited relevance to road riding and so I can understand why ACC would be reluctant to fund such events. The Auckland Motorcycle Club Track days that happened several years after my retirement were, in my opinion, NOT road rider training. They were thinly disguised road racer training.

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkW View Post
    I've retired from most rider training activities now but when I was in charge of the Auckland Motorcycle Club's Rider training programme we used a number of tracks around the country for the purposes of rider training. My opinion is that it is easier and safer to teach the practicalities of cornering lines, braking, pillion riding and counter steering on a piece of tar seal where you don't have to worry about oncoming traffic, power poles, sheep and all of the other variables that occur on a piece of road. But the course needs to be focussed completely on road RIDER training and far too many such courses became road RACER training. There is a huge difference. Instructor ratios for the road rider courses that I used to run were 1 instructor to every 4 pupils and the motorcycle had to be fully road registered and up to WOF standards. And we ran on the tracks that we used in both directions because we were doing Rider training. The courses cost a fair bit of money - hiring Pukekohe for 16 students for the day was not cheap and the cost is probably now prohibitive. But when I was teaching road riding techniques it is my opinion that doing this on a piece of tarmac well away from the public was safer for everyone. Including the public.
    Sadly, most track days now appear to have limited relevance to road riding and so I can understand why ACC would be reluctant to fund such events. The Auckland Motorcycle Club Track days that happened several years after my retirement were, in my opinion, NOT road rider training. They were thinly disguised road racer training.
    We used to do the ART days and loved them.

    Other days after those have been less than stellar.

    Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    I hear ya Skoober, but I ask you this : How many of your mates is is acceptable to kill in road crashes? Pick a number.
    That depends a lot on context.
    The first road death I saw up close and personal I was 13, a passenger in my mum's car.
    Bumper to bumper traffic on State Highway 1, after Albany before Silverdale, before the flat top was installed... to improve safety and facilitate improved flow.

    Car served slowly into oncoming traffic then speared back in to hit the left curb. Driver fell out and died.

    Driver was well over 80. According to the Ambos he suffered a major stroke and his dying act was to put his car over the curb and cut the engine rather than go over cliff or hit another car.

    You're never going to remove these events from life.

    Life results in death %100 of the time.

    Is it sad when someone we know dies on the road? Yes.
    Is that compounded when that death is preventable? Yes.
    Again compounded when they were being silly? Yes.

    Any different to suicide?
    Any different to slipping in the shower?

    Perhaps aim to reduce the number of deaths relating to hold my beer type deaths?
    Perhaps aim to reduce, but short of denying humans access to even cross the road there will always be road deaths.
    300 seems like a good number. Led than last year.
    Less than .0075 of the population.

    Suicide prevention would reach more of the population 668 last year.

    Sure, continue to police known contributers such as speed, dangerous driving, unsecured occupants, texting and driving, intoxicated drivers, unsafe vehicle's etc, ad nausium.
    But deaths will always be a proportional cost of transporting humans.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by rastuscat View Post
    ACC used to be okay about paying for some track time, as long as it was part of a road safety event. Trouble is, put someone on a rack, and they want to go fast. No way around that. It's the reality.

    Now ACC don't pay for track stuff, just on-road stuff.
    they also pay into that shiny side up thing where the harley riders ride round with t shirts and one had no gloves the last event i went to.
    thing is their message is that no matter how good you think you are wear the gear and no matter how good you think you are you are not bullet proof, mixed message or what?

  15. #225
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    Some interesting replies regarding the benefits of training on the track vs the road. I think some assumptions were made that this training day was about track riding rather than road riding skills.

    Maybe I didn't explain clearly enough:

    The majority of the day was road skills training based, in which we followed an experienced rider around the track to practice braking, throttle control, and taking appropriate lines. This was not done at high speed, but at normal road riding pace. The point was to improve road riding skills in a safer environment, so that if mistakes were made, the potential risks were minimised.

    As I stated above, I found this very useful as it allowed us to practice skills in a safe environment, and then apply those skills effectively on the road after having practiced them on the track.

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