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Thread: Gs750

  1. #16
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    1st June 2014 - 21:23
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    A quick read up about the oil pump gears, seems 77-79 gs and 80-83 gsx motors have the same oil pump gears.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by layton View Post
    A quick read up about the oil pump gears, seems 77-79 gs and 80-83 gsx motors have the same oil pump gears.
    I've not done a direct comparison to the early 750 gears but I'd be surprised if they are the same. When Suzuki went plain bearing for the GSX 750 the oil pump speed went up.
    It's very easy to get confused as in the US market, the 16V GSX was still called the GS750.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    I've not done a direct comparison to the early 750 gears but I'd be surprised if they are the same. When Suzuki went plain bearing for the GSX 750 the oil pump speed went up.
    It's very easy to get confused as in the US market, the 16V GSX was still called the GS750.
    i put the part numbers into several different sites and all said that they where the same part

    29T gear - 16331-45000

    38T gear 16321-45002

    years 77 - 83

    i know what you mean that doesn't sound right because of the plain bearing crank

  4. #19
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    Look for 83 on gears. I think the roller 750 was still available in several markets after the GSX arrived.

    I don't currently have a set of GSX gears on the shelf to quote numbers of teeth.
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  5. #20
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    12th February 2004 - 10:29
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    Tjebbe Bruin did a blow through turbo XS1100 using the original CV carbs, modified of course. It went pretty good in his speedway sidecar. I know Rajay turbos are OK on roller bearing crank motorcycles with their low oil pressure but I don't know about other brand journal bearing turbos. However when I was buying an oil line for my little turbo bike the guy at Greenlane Speedshop gave me a 1mm restrictor to fit in the oil supply line. This had me thinking that they actually don't want too much oil and would probably be fine with 4-5psi at the turbo which is probably what you end up with using the restrictor, and what you likely have with the Suzuki.
    Turbo placement is a bitch, they get super hot, they have hot tubes going to them and other tubes as well, and you need to get the oil to them and just as importantly get the oil out.
    If the carbs you have only have one throttle return spring then add another. Go with the standard cams. It sounds like you are going for a sensible low boost setup and there isn't any advantage with "turbo" cams. One things turbos do like is big motors. They grunt real good due to being big and having stock cams, and the turbo takes care of revs and power. I know Suzuki gearboxes are better than Z1s but I would still use an ignition with a rev limiter if the stock one doesn't. That also lets you use the stock valve springs as you won't be revving the nuts off it missing shifts or if brain fade kicks in on a run. With boost the motor will just keep going until something breaks. Programmable ignition systems are reasonably priced nowadays and will improve the engine response off boost if you have retarded the ignition for boost conditions which will result in retarded ignition everywhere all the time.

    Something else to consider is electronic boost control. With a standard wastegate it will start opening before the desired boost is reached. Exhaust gas will bypass the turbine which will reduce the rate of boost increase. If you have the wastegate set to 7psi it might take 3 seconds to reach full boost in top starting from 4000rpm, or something like that. If you have the wastegate set to 15psi it will hit 7psi much quicker as the wastegate is still completely closed at 7psi and all the exhaust is going to the turbine so it spins up faster.

    Have a look at injecting water on boost. I did it on my Mitsi L200 using the windscreen washer feeding into the carb through a jet. I disconnected the wastegate and experimented by carefully bringing boost up until it pinked, then I turned on the windscreen washer. The pinking stopped instantly and I could run another couple of pounds with no problems, apart from the clutch plate breaking. Pretty easy to automate. You could inject methanol but then you would have to adjust the carb fuel on boost. I played with that on a Nissan Gazelle with a FJ20DET but it went rich so no gain and I ran out of free dyno time.

    Done right it will be huge fun. Don't believe the stories of big horsepower from stock Z1Rtc Kawasakis. I've heard 160hp mentioned but I have a hard time believing it. 120hp maybe.

    Jato, if he is who I think he is has been there done that with turbo bikes, a few years ago anyway. The only thing that has changed is all the fancy electronics available.

    Don't ignore oil leaks. They could be your first warning of head gasket movement caused by the head being lifted or cracks developing in cases etc.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedpro View Post
    Tjebbe Bruin did a blow through turbo XS1100 using the original CV carbs, modified of course. It went pretty good in his speedway sidecar. I know Rajay turbos are OK on roller bearing crank motorcycles with their low oil pressure but I don't know about other brand journal bearing turbos. However when I was buying an oil line for my little turbo bike the guy at Greenlane Speedshop gave me a 1mm restrictor to fit in the oil supply line. This had me thinking that they actually don't want too much oil and would probably be fine with 4-5psi at the turbo which is probably what you end up with using the restrictor, and what you likely have with the Suzuki.
    Turbo placement is a bitch, they get super hot, they have hot tubes going to them and other tubes as well, and you need to get the oil to them and just as importantly get the oil out.
    If the carbs you have only have one throttle return spring then add another. Go with the standard cams. It sounds like you are going for a sensible low boost setup and there isn't any advantage with "turbo" cams. One things turbos do like is big motors. They grunt real good due to being big and having stock cams, and the turbo takes care of revs and power. I know Suzuki gearboxes are better than Z1s but I would still use an ignition with a rev limiter if the stock one doesn't. That also lets you use the stock valve springs as you won't be revving the nuts off it missing shifts or if brain fade kicks in on a run. With boost the motor will just keep going until something breaks. Programmable ignition systems are reasonably priced nowadays and will improve the engine response off boost if you have retarded the ignition for boost conditions which will result in retarded ignition everywhere all the time.

    Something else to consider is electronic boost control. With a standard wastegate it will start opening before the desired boost is reached. Exhaust gas will bypass the turbine which will reduce the rate of boost increase. If you have the wastegate set to 7psi it might take 3 seconds to reach full boost in top starting from 4000rpm, or something like that. If you have the wastegate set to 15psi it will hit 7psi much quicker as the wastegate is still completely closed at 7psi and all the exhaust is going to the turbine so it spins up faster.

    Have a look at injecting water on boost. I did it on my Mitsi L200 using the windscreen washer feeding into the carb through a jet. I disconnected the wastegate and experimented by carefully bringing boost up until it pinked, then I turned on the windscreen washer. The pinking stopped instantly and I could run another couple of pounds with no problems, apart from the clutch plate breaking. Pretty easy to automate. You could inject methanol but then you would have to adjust the carb fuel on boost. I played with that on a Nissan Gazelle with a FJ20DET but it went rich so no gain and I ran out of free dyno time.

    Done right it will be huge fun. Don't believe the stories of big horsepower from stock Z1Rtc Kawasakis. I've heard 160hp mentioned but I have a hard time believing it. 120hp maybe.

    Jato, if he is who I think he is has been there done that with turbo bikes, a few years ago anyway. The only thing that has changed is all the fancy electronics available.

    Don't ignore oil leaks. They could be your first warning of head gasket movement caused by the head being lifted or cracks developing in cases etc.
    i actually havnt even looked into ignition or anything like that, i still feel sooo far away from that stage but it is all very important stuff that i must start looking at.

    pulled the clutch and basket to check out the oil pump gears, i have 29 - 38 tooth gears so i DO have the desired gears.

    what im going to do it just run the damn thing with the turbo i have on the standard oil supply with a modified restricter in the oil pump and see how long the turbo lasts, if i make 10,000 kms from it ill be happy.

    if something turns to shite ill adapt the harley oil supply to the sump with an extended shaft coming from the oil pump

    some hamfisted greese monkey has been at this thing with a cold chisel, clutch hub nut is proper munched.. im now doubting the condition of the motor! i wonder if anything is missing, i done a compression test when i first got the motor and the numbers seem OK bearing in mind this thing hasnt run for a long time, the numbers where about 115 PSI on all 4.

    20180604_084917
    Screenshot_2018_06_02_11_46_48

    excuse my awesome drawing skills but this is where im thinking of routing the exhaust behind the peg and high enough to clear the chain
    Inked20180604 084844 LI

  7. #22
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    It's a bit embarrassing to admit that I have used a cold chisel to tap nuts I didn't have a socket to fit fully tight. I don't know about the Suzuki oil system but make sure the turbo gets the unrestricted supply and the engine gets what's left through the restrictor. It was a bit of a toss up whether to go with a 6mm or 7mm restrictor on Z1s. With a 6 the oil light flashed away regularly but I never did hear of any issues caused by lack of oil even with the plain bearing cams.

    You are probably right. Keep it simple and low boost and it'll be fine. Boost is addictive though, try not to be tempted to give the wastegate "just one more turn". When one turn is good for 30hp it's tempting.

  8. #23
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    28th May 2006 - 19:35
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    Quote Originally Posted by layton View Post
    some hamfisted greese monkey has been at this thing with a cold chisel, clutch hub nut is proper munched..
    same chimp who fitted the swingarm on upside down maybe?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellywrestler View Post
    same chimp who fitted the swingarm on upside down maybe?
    Naaaah, this chimp has a big socket set and a rattle gun

    To be fair I was a fair few beer in when I thought I would fit the swing arm to check clearences

    I have a drawing for the turbo feed, just have to go buy a big bolt and turn it down... but I'll deal.with that once I have it in place

  10. #25
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    3rd February 2004 - 08:11
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    Something to consider with your planned turbo location - oil feed TO the turbo is not location sensitive - the oil is under pressure and will go where it is piped. Oil drain FROM the turbo is more of a problem. McInneses book describes oil out as being like "dirty whipped cream" and as such won't flow well. Thats why turbo oil drain pipes are much larger in diameter, as short as possible and draining into a non-pressurised area (ie the sump). If the turbo is below the level of the sump you may have to consider a scavenge pump. If there is no compressor side seal (not unusual with diesel turbos) oil that accumulates in the bearing housing will make its way into the compressor. Spectacular smokies will result.
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
    (PostalDave on ADVrider)

  11. #26
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    Both the Z and the roller GS's have good oil ponding areas around the cam bearings and followers. As long as it's replenished - even slowly - the cams will be OK.

    We bought an ex turbo'd GS1000 engine for the race bike a while back now. The top of the cases had a big tapped hole for the turbo drain on top of the gearbox which I made up a cover for. The layout that had been used for the turbo obviously neccesitated rerouting the clutch cable down the RHS of the block rather than across the back. The clutch cable mounts had been cut off...Again a bolt on piece was made up to sort that. The turbo cable mount I never saw but I assume it simply used the clutch cover screws to mount.
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  12. #27
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    Tonight's progress

    20180605_213948

  13. #28
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    12th February 2004 - 10:29
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    That pipe is going to shed heat badly. This will reduce the exhaust gas pressure to the turbo. The most obvious result will probably be the turbo will be slower to spool up which is the last thing you want. I suggest you have another look at a short, tight, exhaust route similar to a Z1Rtc. The header part shouldn't interfere with your riding. It'll be the turbo outlet that warms the thigh although it looks like your turbo location is towards the rear and it might not be a problem so much. Either way some modern insulation held in place by a sheetmetal shield will make it entirely bearable.

  14. #29
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    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  15. #30
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    12th February 2004 - 10:29
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    A very easy experiment to see how much gas changes in volume with temperature, grab an empty 2L milk bottle, slop some recently boiled water around inside so it is full off hot air(only 100 deg C at max), tip out the water and quickly screw the top back on, now put it under running cold water. At the most this is probably only a 80-90degree change. Now translate that to loosing say 1-200 degrees down that exhaust. It's probably less of a drop but still.
    This is why I think turbos get away with incredibly ugly exhaust manifolds. You may lose some free flow compared with a nice swoopy one but the amount of heat retained in the exhaust more than makes up for it maintaining maximum gas volume. At the least very short primaries and a smallish secondary to the turbo are probably preferred.
    The turbo outlet needs to be as big and free-flowing as you can make it. You want the maximum pressure drop across the turbo so maximum work is extracted from the exhaust gas. The other advantage of achieving that is that the temperature will drop more as well leaving a slightly cooler gas exiting the turbo to warm your leg.

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