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Thread: Tommy Robinson

  1. #61
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    Lord knows that Me and Katman almost never agree on anything - but Hell hath frozen over, so it would seem.

    There's a number of comments in this thread - I'll try and boil them down to commonalities:

    1: Tommy Robinson is a Racist.

    Now - I've listened to a fair bit of Tommy, it's possible to make the claim if you lift what he says out of context and also lift HIM out of context. He's a working class lad and his word choice can be called careless at times. This does not make him a Racist. I've yet to hear Tommy say something expressly racist. He's talked about certain cultures that are objectively highly patriarchal and treat women (especially Western, non-islamic Women) as less than Prostitutes, these claims are backed by objective facts - if you want to use this as a claim for racism, then you have to argue that reality is racist.

    He also talks about all his Black, Muslim and pakistani friends, in fact he has on many occassionals waxed lyrical about his love for the Sikh community in England. I'll end this rebuttal with a picture that paints a thousand words:



    Does that look like a Racist?

    2: Tommy Robinson could have kept quiet and none of this would have happened.

    This claim is a little more nuanced - Tommy's main schtick (in this instance) is that the Rotherham scandal wasn't an isolated incident and that there is an invasive attitude that has seeped into British Political and Policing circles that has resulted in blind-eyes being turned, for fear of the accusation of Racism.

    first part to this claim - we need to look at Rotherham:

    It was first documented in the early 1990s, when care-home managers investigated reports that children in their care were being picked up by taxi drivers.[18] From at least 2001, multiple reports passed names of alleged perpetrators, several from one family, to the police and Rotherham Council. The first group conviction took place in 2010, when five British-Pakistani men were convicted of sexual offences against girls aged 12–16
    That's 20+ years - where Silence on pain of "RACIST!" allowed Girls to be raped by Pedophiles (and worse). The key word in that sentence is Silence - Nobody wanted to know or to listen to people who weren't racist and were following the correct paths to address a grievance.

    So when all legitimate means of redress have been exhausted, the Masses must be mobilized - this is where the EDL came into being. People were pissed off at authorities in Ivory towers not listening to them, when they knew something was happening. So when the same authorities tell you to be quiet - what logical option is there?

    Stand by in silence whilst Pedophiles fuck your daughters with impunity? If any among you could stand idly by whilst such horrors were being inflicted on the most vulnerable in society, then you will have naught but my contempt.

    Now, if the powers that be could have an open and honest discussion about Islam, or even just certain parts of Islam and certain cultural aspects that have been imported, If the police were to do their job without any prejudice toward Creed, Colour, Gender, or any other attribute - then at that point, Tommy might be able to sit down and be quiet.

    But if you still can't abide by Tommy, have a listen to one Douglas Murray.

    3: That what is happening in the UK has complete irrelevance to what is happening over her.

    Au Contraire - firstly, since Her majesty is the Sovereign of New Zealand, where the UK goes - NZ invariable follows, secondly - we share a derived Legal system and so anything that is happening in the Legal landscape of the UK is of paramount importance to NZ:

    https://www.loc.gov/law/help/domesti...newzealand.php

    Historically, New Zealand courts have looked to the courts of England for sources of precedents in order to apply established principles and rules. Over time, ... the courts have expanded the range of countries from which foreign cases are examined, particularly looking to Australia, Canada, and the United States
    Thirdly - there has been a direct collusion between the Political wing and the Policing wing - Labour held counties didn't want to upset their labour-voting Islamic community, and so pressured the Police not to act. This is eerily similar to the Inspector Generals report about FBI bias in the Clinton affair. Interesting to note that this has been done by 2 Left-wing parties - the point here is that 2 mature Western democracies have put a hole in a very VERY important wall, separating the Judiciary from the Legislature.

    Fourthly, Remember when the Police were exempt from fining unlicenced Maori drivers in NZ? I'll grant it's miles and miles behind pedophilia - but even in lil' ol' NZ - we have one of the foundational cornerstones of our Justice system being slowly hammered out of the groundworks. Need I remind you why:
    Lady justice stands the way she does - A Sword in one hand, to enact justice. A scale in the other, to weigh the evidence. And a Blindfold across her eyes so that she sees no Race, no Colour, no Gender.



    She is depicted that way for a reason - and once we forget that, once we think that it's okay to let Race or gender or colour be a factor in the application of Law, even just a little bit, even with the noblest of intentions - we've started down a very dangerous path. One that I hope we have the good sense to turn around from.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    The issue is much bigger than just England though.
    Says who? (other than yourself)

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonu View Post
    Says who? (other than yourself)
    This issue could have serious ramifications for anywhere that has seen rampant immigration - especially if there is a perception that it has gone hand in hand with an increase in crime.

    Plenty of places in Europe (and in the States) seem to have burgeoning Nationalist movements who would happily exploit a martyrdom to it's fullest extent.
    Quote Originally Posted by husaberk View Post
    Oh I must really irk you to be repeatedly proven to be a total utter moron in public.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    This issue could have serious ramifications for anywhere that has seen rampant immigration - especially if there is a perception that it has gone hand in hand with an increase in crime.

    Plenty of places in Europe (and in the States) seem to have burgeoning Nationalist movements who would happily exploit a martyrdom to it's fullest extent.
    It seams the Italians have the right idea.
    Of course if America did the same thing there would be a huge international uproar.
    http://www.ktvz.com/news/national-wo...dock/754065739

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonu View Post
    It seams the Italians have the right idea.
    Of course if America did the same thing there would be a huge international uproar.
    http://www.ktvz.com/news/national-wo...dock/754065739
    Apparently the wops folded. Hardly surprising...
    http://www.ktvz.com/news/national-wo...doff/754326482

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post

    1: Tommy Robinson is a Racist.


    He also talks about all his Black, Muslim and pakistani friends, in fact he has on many occassionals waxed lyrical about his love for the Sikh community in England. I'll end this rebuttal with a picture that paints a thousand words:



    Does that look like a Racist?

    2: Tommy Robinson could have kept quiet and none of this would have happened.

    This claim is a little more nuanced - Tommy's main schtick (in this instance) is that the Rotherham scandal wasn't an isolated incident and that there is an invasive attitude that has seeped into British Political and Policing circles that has resulted in blind-eyes being turned, for fear of the accusation of Racism.

    .
    Even David Duke claims to have Black friends
    Plus even other Members of the KKK will shake a black persons hand as below so your points are a little simplistic.



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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Even David Duke claims to have Black friends
    Plus even other Members of the KKK will shake a black persons hand as below so your points are a little simplistic.
    If you've listened to Tommy speak about when Multiculturalism was going well, these are not the words of someone who is a Racist.

    For sure, the point is simplistic - but how many of you have actually listened to him speak? As opposed to read a report on him?
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    If you've listened to Tommy speak about when Multiculturalism was going well, these are not the words of someone who is a Racist.

    For sure, the point is simplistic - but how many of you have actually listened to him speak? As opposed to read a report on him?
    You are computer savy why not go back and look at what Tommy had said that has been deleted now.
    Every single Muslim watching this… on 7/7 you got away with killing and maiming British citizens… you had better understand that we have built a network from one end of the country to the other end… and the Islamic community will feel the full force of the English Defence League if we see any of our British citizens killed, maimed, or hurt on British soil ever again.
    ” Robinson held aloft a copy of the Koran, ” Robinson told Morgan, “This book is the reason we are in such a mess,”
    Tommy wasn't jailed because he was a racist he was jailed for contempt of court.



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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    You are computer savy why not go back and look at what Tommy had said that has been deleted now.
    He speaks plainly and is rather careless in his word choices - I've acknowledged that, he's not from Academia, he's from the working class. Taking what he said in Context - he's pissed off - he's pissed at both the people that did it and at the wider Islamic community that stood by and did nothing to stop it.

    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Tommy wasn't jailed because he was a racist he was jailed for contempt of court.
    Just like he wasn't jailed for racism the first time, but for Mortgage Fraud - I think Douglas Murray articulates this best:

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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    He speaks plainly and is rather careless in his word choices - I've acknowledged that, he's not from Academia, he's from the working class
    " he's from the working class"

    Aircraft Technician is hardly working class, but getting pissed and punching cops is, I wonder if football was involved.


    According to Robinson, after he left school he applied to study aircraft engineering at Luton Airport: "I got an apprenticeship six hundred people applied for, and they took four people on". He qualified in 2003 after five years of study, but then he was convicted for drunken assault of an off-duty police officer.[11] He served a 12-month prison sentence,[16] and as a result lost his job at Luton Airport owing to security measures imposed since the September 11 attacks.[11]
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    " he's from the working class"

    Aircraft Technician is hardly working class, but getting pissed and punching cops is, I wonder if football was involved.
    Probably was - he himself admits that in his youth he was a bit of a prat.

    However, he most definitely is working class, both from the locale that he grew up in and the education he received (he got an apprenticeship, he didn't go to Uni to study Aeronautical engineering)

    But all that is a Red Herring to the actual issue being discussed.

    You can argue that Tommy broke contempt of court rules and should go to prison, and on a purely technical level - I can't fault that argument.

    However, in a wider context (given certain socio-political happenings in the UK) you could make a counter argument that Tommy's breach of the contempt of court restrictions was part of a valid protest and that the restrictions on the case, placed by the Judge were contrary to the public interest and that Tommy was acting within the Public interest (and so his actions were justified, possibly even lawful).

    Circling back to the point made by Douglas Murray - It is clear that they are using every technicality to throw the book at Tommy, with the hopes of shutting him up.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    He speaks plainly and is rather careless in his word choices - I've acknowledged that, he's not from Academia, he's from the working class. Taking what he said in Context - he's pissed off - he's pissed at both the people that did it and at the wider Islamic community that stood by and did nothing to stop it.



    Just like he wasn't jailed for racism the first time, but for Mortgage Fraud - I think Douglas Murray articulates this best:
    He committed mortgage fraud. that's why he was jailed. Hint if he hadn't committed the mortgage fraud he would not have been jailed for it.
    He or his supporters cant claim it never occurred as he admitted he was guilty
    English Defence League (EDL) founder and former leader Stephen Yaxley-Lennon has admitted mortgage fraud offences.
    He pleaded guilty to two counts of conspiring with others to obtain a mortgage by misrepresentation from the Abbey and Halifax banks.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    You can argue that Tommy broke contempt of court rules and should go to prison, and on a purely technical level - I can't fault that argument.
    However, in a wider context (given certain socio-political happenings in the UK) you could make a counter argument that Tommy's breach of the contempt of court restrictions was part of a valid protest and that the restrictions on the case, placed by the Judge were contrary to the public interest and that Tommy was acting within the Public interest (and so his actions were justified, possibly even lawful).

    Circling back to the point made by Douglas Murray - It is clear that they are using every technicality to throw the book at Tommy, with the hopes of shutting him up.
    Are you really suggesting that the same rules shouldn't apply to Tommy as apply to others.
    He was given plenty of chances before they "threw the book at him"
    He was sent to prison for his own continued breaches of the law.
    To say otherwise is a Red Herring.
    Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon aka Tommy Robinson, aka Andrew McMaster aka Paul Harris.

    Lennon was convicted in April 2005 for assault occasioning actual bodily harm. Lennon had assaulted an off-duty police officer who had intervened to stop a confrontation between Lennon and his partner Jenna Vowles, another BNP member, who was cautioned for possession of cocaine
    In June 2011 he was arrested in connection with a brawl at an EDL demonstration
    The following month he was sentenced to twelve months of "community rehabilitation" for his front-line role in a fight between rival football hooligans, to which he responded that the country is a "police state
    On 20 October 2012 Lennon was arrested on suspicion of possessing a false passport (under the name "Andrew McMaster"), and, after spending Christmas in jail, was found guilty in January 2013.[15][16] He was released from prison the following February, under bail conditions that kept him away from the EDLStephen Lennon, 30, from Luton, admitted possession of a false identity document with improper intention.
    Lennon used a passport in the name of Andrew McMaster to board a Virgin Atlantic flight from Heathrow to New York, Southwark Crown Court was told.

    The terms of his early release included having no contact with the EDL until the end of his original sentence in June 2015. He was due to talk to the Oxford Union in October 2014, but was recalled to prison before the event for breaching the terms of his licence.
    In May 2017, he was arrested for contempt of court after he attempted to take video of the defendants in a child rape case outside Canterbury Crown Court.
    In May 2017, Robinson was convicted of contempt of court for using a camera inside Canterbury Crown Court and received a suspended sentence
    According to Judge Heather Norton, "this is not about free speech, not about the freedom of the press, nor about legitimate journalism, and not about political correctness. It is about justice and ensuring that a trial can be carried out justly and fairly, it's about being innocent until proven guilty. It is about preserving the integrity of the jury to continue without people being intimidated or being affected by irresponsible and inaccurate 'reporting', if that's what it was
    On 25 May 2018, Robinson was arrested for a breach of the peace while live streaming outside Leeds Crown Court during a trial on which reporting restrictions had been ordered by the judge
    Following Robinson's arrest, Judge Geoffrey Marson QC issued a further reporting restriction on Robinson's case, prohibiting any reporting of Robinson's case or the grooming trial until the latter case is complete
    On 29 May, the reporting restriction was lifted with regard to Robinson, following a challenge by journalists, and the media reported that Robinson had admitted contempt of court by publishing information that could prejudice an ongoing trial, and had been sentenced to 13 months' imprisonment
    Marson sentenced Robinson to ten months for contempt of court and his previous three months' suspended sentence was activated because of the breach. Robinson's lawyer said that Robinson felt "deep regret" after comprehending the potential consequences of his behaviour.Robinson was told that if a retrial had to be held as a result of his actions the cost could be "hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds



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  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Probably was - he himself admits that in his youth he was a bit of a prat.

    However, he most definitely is working class, both from the locale that he grew up in and the education he received (he got an apprenticeship, he didn't go to Uni to study Aeronautical engineering)

    But all that is a Red Herring to the actual issue being discussed.
    ah you must be English with that take on your place in life is determined by who your parents are, place of birth, formal education etc.

    I can see why immigrants to the UK struggle, did you watch the Royal Wedding.

    Your working class as you get up each day and go to work, although probably not much as you spend so much time on here.

    Anyway back to your in depth discussion with people you don't know.
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Are you really suggesting that the same rules shouldn't apply to Tommy as apply to others.
    Not at all - can you point to where I've suggested that?

    There has been a well documented failing, at multiple levels of Governance to address the problem(s) that Tommy is speaking out against.

    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    He was given plenty of chances before they "threw the book at him"
    He was sent to prison for his own continued breaches of the law.
    To say otherwise is a Red Herring.
    Do you not find it interesting, that there is a correlation between the rise of the EDL and the rise of arrests against Tommy?

    I again, refer to Douglas Murray's point - it seems clear that these were politically motivated. I think his current actions fall within the purview of Civil Disobedience - Namely, the current laws have objectively failed (Rotherham, failure to deal with extremist clerics/imams/Mosques etc.) and Tommy is protesting this.

    Here's a question for you, Husa - Put aside your character judgements of Tommy for the moment - do you think that the issues have

    1: Been correctly dealt with by the UK governmental structure
    and
    2: that the current legal means of redress have been working correctly

    I put it to you that the objective answer to both questions is No. This then leads to the follow question:

    3: If you assume my a priori position (and that of Tommy's) that the answer to question 1 and 2 is no - what other means is there to enact change?
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    ah you must be English with that take on your place in life is determined by who your parents are, place of birth, formal education etc.
    Well, yes... I didn't think that was news to anyone here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    I can see why immigrants to the UK struggle, did you watch the Royal Wedding.
    I didn't - I support the royal Family, I'm just not fussed with some of the pomp and ceremony associated with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    Your working class as you get up each day and go to work, although probably not much as you spend so much time on here.

    Anyway back to your in depth discussion with people you don't know.
    Interesting point regarding class, I'd put myself as Middle class - but trying to find a concrete definition as to what is and what is not middle class turns out to be a pandoras box.
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