Tommy Robinson

[Banditbandit]

I'm no fan of Hate Speech laws, but I'll draw comparison to the Rwandan massacre - Preaching the death and destruction (whether it is an abstract flourish or fully malevolently intended) of the West/Western democracy is not protected by Free Speech.

How do you deal with the groups that advocate exactly that - from wthin - the anarchists, the hard line communists ... the fascists? They all preach death and destruction to the Western systems.

I've got no love of them, however the Sharia courts in the UK have a history of some dubious, even illegal rulings.

Can you give specific examples?

Sure - and if TPTB stood up and said "Islam is a religion of Peace, but there is a small subset who are using it for evil means" - that would go a long way to actually dealing with the problem.

That said - there are parts of the Qu'ran that explicitly allow for violence, in a way that is different from the New Testament

Yes - just as the Bible does - the interpretation s important - and the minority interpret it in a different way .. just as in Xianity ..

There are a few reformist clerics and Imams - who have espoused views that Islam needs to undergo something akin to the renaissance and the enlightenment - they are in the Minority and are often ostracized from the Islamic community - some have even reported Death threats and other such actions against them.

Show me how they are a minority ... The ones you speak of are Wahhabi fiollowers - and a minority ..

There's a secondary issue that there is a veil of silence within some Islamic communities - some of it is cultural, some of it is also seated in a belief that whilst they may not like the extremists - they are still following the Qu'ran and therefore are still good muslims.

Wrong - see below ..

I'll draw a comparision to what the USSR was doing in the 50s through to 70s - actively financing Union groups, Marxist institutions and other far-left organizations - When it became clear that McCarthy was right, we pressured those groups to sever ties with the Communist bloc.

I think something similar can be done - however, as Katman points out - that would rather upset the Saudis.

But I bet you support groups that tried to overturn Soviet Russia ...


https://www.theguardian.com/world/sh...errorism-stats

https://muslimscondemn.com/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poste...=.fac6702d9571

[Katman]

Just to put in my own two cents..

If people like Mr Yaxley-Lennon are so confident, sure, and proud of how right they are to incite hate and all these negative vibes.. Why hide behind an array of monikers and aliases?

Why does it matter?

It's not like he hides behind a computer screen.

[WALRUS]

Why does it matter?

It's not like he hides behind a computer screen.

Fair point, I just think it's a little odd.. If I have that much conviction in anything, I'll gladly put my name to it and spruik that "this is what I think", rather than tell people that my name is Guybrush Threepwood and hope that nobody finds out who I am (or at least, I figure that was his intention, why else would someone use a moniker or alias in place of their real name??)..

Personally, I've got my own opinion about all this crap and I've seen enough bollocks on social media to avoid an internet conversation about it. Wires get crossed, context lost, and messages misinterpreted and everyone just ends up being shitty with everyone else, which there is too much of in the world already without adding yet more to the division by bickering about these matters.

I'm out, have fun guys!

[TheDemonLord]

How do you deal with the groups that advocate exactly that - from wthin - the anarchists, the hard line communists ... the fascists? They all preach death and destruction to the Western systems.

Well, I'm not fans of any of those groups - the difference is - they've been relatively good at keeping the Rhetoric strictly Rhetorical.

Can you give specific examples?

Not of a specific case, but I can give a specific of a type of case - namely where a Sharia court adjudicates over the dissolution of an Islamic marriage and strips the woman of all her rights (property, children etc.) that she is granted under Western Law.

Yes - just as the Bible does - the interpretation s important - and the minority interpret it in a different way .. just as in Xianity ..

In the old testament, certainly - but most of the silly rules in Christianity were retconned in the New Testament - it's why Christians can enjoy Shellfish, clothes of 2 fibres and eat Pork.

The Qu'ran (and supporting haddiths) have no such qualifiers.

Show me how they are a minority ... The ones you speak of are Wahhabi fiollowers - and a minority ..

People like Maajid Nawaz for example - who is a very moderate Muslim - was labelled as "An anti-muslim Extremist" by the SPLC (although as of a few hours ago - they've now admitted that he isn't) - I think that is proof enough that people like Maajid are not in the majority.

Wrong - see below ..

There's a quote (which for the life of me I can't find) from I believe a leading Egyptian Immam when he was pressed as to whether or not ISIS where conforming to the tenants of Islam, he acknowledged that they were. I'll see if I can find it.

But I bet you support groups that tried to overturn Soviet Russia ...

Ultimately - it was the Russians that overthrew Communism. I guess you could say I support them - but from a point of principle, not from a point of lobbying and pouring money into the cause.

[Katman]

I'm out, have fun guys!

Forgotten you already.

[husaberg]

Cause it's not like Islam has a record of murdering people that critique their religion or their Prophet - do I need to bring up Charlie Hebdo?



You are putting the Cart before the Horse: It's because of their middle eastern descent and values that they committed the crimes they did, It's the values that Tommy is objecting to.



Indeed - now compare the actions of the Police against Tommy (raiding his house, picking him up on multiple technicalities) vs the actions of the Police in Rotherham (20 years of inaction)

Do you see the double standard and why people are a little bit annoyed?



You're trying to setup a false equivalence - There's a very key difference between the Catholic Church offences and these offences:

With the Catholic church, they were investigated by the police multiple times, however the Church actively hindered investigations (such as posting a cardinal to another country, paying off the victims etc.)

In the Rotherham (and subsequent cases) The police, the Council and other institutions colluded to actively NOT investigate the cases for fear of being labelled racist

So no, there aren't parrallels to be drawn.



You mean - they didn't want people angry at the Islamic community for raping their daughters? So they abused the legal system to prevent people from talking about it? Why! Thanks for proving my entire point!

This is entirely in line with their previous actions, so from there - it's rather plain to see why people are objecting to it - they are seeing that the political class has not learned from Rotherham and are committing the same mistakes.



It's entirely relevant - ever heard of a Jury acquittal?

I typed a long reply this afternoon and it was lost but Bandit covered most of it anyway.
Especially the bit with the IRA.
Point is Not all people from the Middle east are rapists
you might find it incredible but Some rapist are even born in the UK While some are not
but all rapists are rapists
You cant blame a religion or a community for the acts of a few.
The vast majority of the middle eastern immigrant's to the UK are hard working honest people

There would not be cry's to beat all ex pat poms in the streets of NZ if an Ex pat pom raped a kiwi in NZ
Yet that's exactly what is occurring in the UK.
This is exactly what the media ban was in place to prevent.
I have never seen call to beat all priests because some were paedophiles
I covered all the real world issues with dealing with an organised crime were the witness and the people involved don't co-operate.
ts not a double standard that AKA was convicted so quick he was caught bang to rights and pleaded guilty.
AKA was already on a suspended sentence for similar offences.
The rapists took time because the police investigation was poor the victims were reticent in coming forward due to fear and the legal defence teams slowed the legal process.
The results were the same the guilty were punished in the end but the speed was different.

[TheDemonLord]

I typed a long reply this afternoon and it was lost but Bandit covered most of it anyway.
Especially the bit with the IRA.
Point is Not all people from the Middle east are rapists
you might find it incredible but Some rapist are even born in the UK While some are not
but all rapists are rapists
You cant blame a religion or a community for the acts of a few.
The vast majority of the middle eastern immigrant's to the UK are hard working honest people

Then why haven't we seen German Grooming gangs? or US grooming Gangs? or Australian grooming Gangs? or Jewish grooming gangs? or Sikh grooming gangs?

I've not said all people from the Middle east are rapists, however - there is a combination of cultural attitudes towards women AND teachings within the Qu'ran that are uniquely combined to create this phenomena.

So yes, I can explicitly blame a religion and a community if their values/teaching are what allowed this to happen. This is the part that you have to acknowledge - it's why this particular type of crime was carried out by groups of people with a number of common traits - namely where they were from and who their god was.

To try and spin this differently is to deny the very problem - which is what the British government and political class did for Decades, until such time that the working classes had enough.

There would not be cry's to beat all ex pat poms in the streets of NZ if an Ex pat pom raped a kiwi in NZ
Yet that's exactly what is occurring in the UK.
This is exactly what the media ban was in place to prevent.
I have never seen call to beat all priests because some were paedophiles
I covered all the real world issues with dealing with an organised crime were the witness and the people involved don't co-operate.

Firstly - you are trying to setup a false equivalence - Ex-pat poms don't look at NZ women who aren't wearing a full body covering as automatically prostitutes.

Next - I thought you said the media ban was about a fair trial? now it's about protecting a Minority? Seems to me you don't know exactly why it was in place...

ts not a double standard that AKA was convicted so quick he was caught bang to rights and pleaded guilty.
AKA was already on a suspended sentence for similar offences.
The rapists took time because the police investigation was poor the victims were reticent in coming forward due to fear and the legal defence teams slowed the legal process.
The results were the same the guilty were punished in the end but the speed was different.

It's not that the police investigation was poor. I want you to be really clear on this point:

They actively didn't investigate for fear of being Racist. The council actively didn't want it investigated for fear of upsetting their voter base.

That's not a poor investigation - that would imply ineptitude and mishandling - the Rotherham report is quite clear on this, that was active dereliction of duty by the Police, Council and associated bodies.

So yes - there is an absolute double standard here.

[Berries]

Ex-pat poms don't look at NZ women who aren't wearing a full body covering as automatically prostitutes.

Speak for yourself duck, I have been to Christchurch.

[husaberg]

Then why haven't we seen German Grooming gangs? or US grooming Gangs? or Australian grooming Gangs? or Jewish grooming gangs? or Sikh grooming gangs?

I've not said all people from the Middle east are rapists, however - there is a combination of cultural attitudes towards women AND teachings within the Qu'ran that are uniquely combined to create this phenomena.

So yes, I can explicitly blame a religion and a community if their values/teaching are what allowed this to happen. This is the part that you have to acknowledge - it's why this particular type of crime was carried out by groups of people with a number of common traits - namely where they were from and who their god was.

To try and spin this differently is to deny the very problem - which is what the British government and political class did for Decades, until such time that the working classes had enough.



Firstly - you are trying to setup a false equivalence - Ex-pat poms don't look at NZ women who aren't wearing a full body covering as automatically prostitutes.

Next - I thought you said the media ban was about a fair trial? now it's about protecting a Minority? Seems to me you don't know exactly why it was in place...




It's not that the police investigation was poor. I want you to be really clear on this point:

They actively didn't investigate for fear of being Racist. The council actively didn't want it investigated for fear of upsetting their voter base.

That's not a poor investigation - that would imply ineptitude and mishandling - the Rotherham report is quite clear on this, that was active dereliction of duty by the Police, Council and associated bodies.

So yes - there is an absolute double standard here.

Again you are attempting to place blame on a group of people for the acts of a few.
As for it being the only sex ring of its type that's horse shit
There was a sex ring involving very young girls in Dunedin in the late 70's early 80's not one of the group were middle eastern
They were high profile legal professionals and judges and policeman involved.
There was another ring uncovered that involved a American friend of prince Andrew you may recall.
The boy scouts have had issues with paedophile's grooming victims as have schools.
There has been other Child sex rings uncovered in the USA, none of these involved the same religion or ethnicity as the rotheram ring.
The media ban served to protect the community and the victims and to ensure justice was served.
Judging by your own reaction and that which AKA tried to make happen it seems it was needed
Nothing AKA did speed up the process or made it happen, he just used it as a platform for publicity.
You can go on that the police didn't do it on account of race all you want saying over and over again it doesn't make it true.

[TheDemonLord]

Again you are attempting to place blame on a group of people for the acts of a few.
As for it being the only sex ring of its type that's horse shit
There was a sex ring involving very young girls in Dunedin in the late 70's early 80's not one of the group were middle eastern
They were high profile legal professionals and judges and policeman involved.
There was another ring uncovered that involved a American friend of prince Andrew you may recall.
The boy scouts have had issues with paedophile's grooming victims as have schools.
There has been other Child sex rings uncovered in the USA, none of these involved the same religion or ethnicity as the rotheram ring.

Again, you're trying to setup a false equivalence - I'm not going to deny the existence of sporadic pedophile rings - you don't seem to want to contend with the fact that 3rd world attitudes towards women and certain versus in the Qu'ran/Haddiths.

And it's not just Rotherham - Derby, Newcastle, Rochdale etc.

The media ban served to protect the community and the victims and to ensure justice was served.
Judging by your own reaction and that which AKA tried to make happen it seems it was needed

Bull shit. Have you read the Rotherham report or any of the literature surrounding it? The Media ban(s) have been made for purely political reasons. The Victims in these cases were catastrophically let down by the Justice system.

As for my reaction - Let's compare apples with apples shall we? On the one hand you had a group that systematically raped girls and justified it within their small community, using their sexist 3rd world attitudes to women and their religion.

Then you've got people saying that Pedophiles can Fuck off. We've not done anything, there's been no pogroms, no Mosques have been burned down, no lynchings - so Pray tell Husa, exactly how is it that My reaction is requires that the Government protect Pedophiles?

Nothing AKA did speed up the process or made it happen, he just used it as a platform for publicity.

The EDL was started in 2009, since the rise of the EDL, funnily enough, the government started to investigate these issues - and low and behold! There's a reason why a whole bunch of working class people are seriously fucked off at Islam.

In a way that they aren't fucked off at say Sikhism or Buddhism or Judaism.

You can go on that the police didn't do it on account of race all you want saying over and over again it doesn't make it true.

It's not me that is saying it - it's the independant inquiry into it that is:

the Police dared not act against Asian youths for fear of allegations of racism.

expressed the general view that ethnic considerations had influenced the policy response of the Council and the Police

Those who had involvement in CSE were acutely aware of these issues and recalled a general nervousness in the earlier years about discussing them, for fear of being thought racist

The issue of race, regardless of ethnic group, should be tackled as an absolute priority if it is known to be a significant factor in the criminal activity of organised abuse in any local community. There was little evidence of such action being taken in Rotherham in the earlier years

One senior officer suggested that some influential Pakistani-heritage councillors in Rotherham had acted as barriers.

Several councillors interviewed believed that by opening up these issues they could be 'giving oxygen' to racist perspectives that might in turn attract extremist political groups and threaten community cohesion.

Do you see a pattern? They deliberately did not do their job properly, out of a fear of being Racists.

[RDJ]

What TDL said.

[Katman]

Again you are attempting to place blame on a group of people for the acts of a few.
As for it being the only sex ring of its type that's horse shit
There was a sex ring involving very young girls in Dunedin in the late 70's early 80's not one of the group were middle eastern
They were high profile legal professionals and judges and policeman involved.
There was another ring uncovered that involved a American friend of prince Andrew you may recall.
The boy scouts have had issues with paedophile's grooming victims as have schools.
There has been other Child sex rings uncovered in the USA, none of these involved the same religion or ethnicity as the rotheram ring.

And when those crimes were uncovered did the police and local authorities make a concerted attempt to cover them up again?

[Voltaire]

Ex-pat poms

How come we don't talk about Ex pat Syrians, Mexicans and so on......

Out of interest have you been to any Muslim countries?

[Kickaha]

Is it?
Have the so-called moderate wing of Islam come out in force and openly condemned these crimes?

Frequently, but it apparently isn't newsworthy

[TheDemonLord]

How come we don't talk about Ex pat Syrians, Mexicans and so on......

Out of interest have you been to any Muslim countries?

Not really, I've wanted to go to Egypt, I've got friends who've been to Syria (and they loved it). I've stopped over in Dubai a bunch of times (and yes, I changed out of my Metal T-shirt, to something a little more neutral - I'm a guest and I've got to respect their customs)