Tommy Robinson

[Katman]

Robinson was just a violent thug.

Ok, forget Tommy Robinson for a minute.

How do you feel about the authorities turning a blind eye to groups of Pakistani Muslims using underage English girls as sex toys?

How would you feel if it happened in New Plymouth?

[Katman]

Let's not forget that the number of girls involved in this has gone past 1500 and will no doubt still climb.

That's offending on a grand scale.

And it was ignored.

[Katman]

If I was Tommy Robinson I'd be fucked off too.

[pritch]

We know all about that, but none of that has fuck all to do with him. Underlying causes, technicalities, it’s all bollocks.

The prick is simply too stupid to be free. It’s that simple, stop looking for problems.

If you want to look at a conspiracy, check the story in today’s Guardian about the 600 early deaths in a hospital. There may well turn out to have been a conspiracy there too. That’s got nothing to do with his nibs either.

[TheDemonLord]

We know all about that, but none of that has fuck all to do with him. Underlying causes, technicalities, it’s all bollocks.

The prick is simply too stupid to be free. It’s that simple, stop looking for problems.

If you want to look at a conspiracy, check the story in today’s Guardian about the 600 early deaths in a hospital. There may well turn out to have been a conspiracy there too. That’s got nothing to do with his nibs either.

And if it was your Daughter and granddaughters being systematically raped - would you be happy if the Police told you to "stop looking for problems."

Somehow, I think not...

[Katman]

We know all about that, but none of that has fuck all to do with him. Underlying causes, technicalities, it’s all bollocks.

Seriously, are you too, that scared of being accused of being a racist that you can't concede that Tommy Robinson's activism stems from the knowledge that Pakistani Muslims have been treated completely differently in the eyes of the law to the average English person and that the English justice system completely failed to protect over 1500 English girls?

You should go for a job at Rotherham Council.

[Banditbandit]

OK - let's go ..

I'll be honest and say that I'm going off the reports by UK civil liberties groups as to the violations of Womens rights by Sharia courts. I'd offer a mild rebuttal - if you look at Saudi Arabia - it's clear women don't own shit - as they require a male guardian for everything - I'll agree though that Islam is complex, however if I could draw a quick distinction - If you were to put an Ardent Catholic and Ardent protestant up against each other - they would both agree on the 10 commandments (which forms the basis of Judeo-christian law)

And there are base equivalents that all Muslims would share .. but like Christianity - a whole lot they would disagree on. Even the Trinity is not agreed on

Well, no one's perfect - and interesting the cut-off date that Vox uses, I wonder why... However - we are predominantly talking about the UK and Europe - where most of the serious terrorist activity has a distinctly Islamic flavour.

Understandable (but not excusable). It is in the western countries where they are confronted by Islamic hatred, and see pictures every day on TV of anti-Islamic action.

That is not to excuse terrorism - but goes some way to explain attitudes to terrorism among Muslims in the west.

Now, indulge me for a moment - an approximated 100,000 people fully supporting a Terrorist act. That's quite a large number of individuals fully supporting Murder. That's like the entirety of Hamilton supporting Terrorism. Hell, even the KKK has a top estimate of 12,000 members - and that's in the US with a larger population than the UK.

1 in 4 have some sympathies? I'll be quite blunt, I couldn't give a toss what their sympathies are nor how small they might be - There is no justification for Terrorism. Period. It's especially enraging because they are taking full advantage of the freedoms granted to them by our Western ideals, to have those sympathies towards those who would destroy the very civilisation that allows them to openly express them.

That's like giving a hi-5 to the person who Murdered the Doctor who just gave you a lifesaving operation.

Yes - and you come from Britain. During the provos bombing campaign did anyone suggest taking out all the Irish? Support for the provos was high, but did anyone blame Ireland, or did they blame the provos?

Remember - Asian in a british sense refers to Indian and Pakistani descent - but see what I posted previously - 90% of those involved in Grooming Gangs are islamic - that's not a coincidence.

Can you give equivalent figures for Christians involved in sex crimes? Humans are fucked up things .. I'll bet the number of Christians involved in sex crimes in Britain is higher than the number of Muslims.

That's some interesting revisionist history, Now - I should point out that I don't read arabic - but in that passage - I believe there is something of a translation issue in what "right hand possesses" to mean - if you take for example:

The right hand are members of the community - the Umma - Muslims eat with the hand - the right hand - in a shared bowl. The left hand is used to wipe yourself, and NEVER goes i the food bowl. It's an Arabic metaphor and the meaning is not the same in English.

Yes - not al Muslims agree ..



[QUOTE]Sunan of Abu Dawud, vol.2, #2150

Which describes good, old fashoned post-battle rape and pillage:



https://sunnah.com/abudawud/12/110

I believe there are other Hadiths that draw distinction between the rights granted to a believer and the lack of rights to unbelievers.[QUOTE]

Yes - there are. How they are applied depends on the legal school making the judgement. Yes, there are things in the Qu'ran that not all Muslims agree with. Just as there are things in the Bible ..

I'm not so sure, again - for clarity sake, I'm not a Qu'rannic Scholar, but I understand that the later verses (when Mohammed had an army and was conquering) are somewhat more aggressive than the earlier verses.

Yeah - Mohammed was at war with the leaders of the cities - especially Mecca and Medina .. read it in that context .

There is also the practice of short-term marriages - which is basically a loophole to get around prostitution being illegal.

We also have to contend that within countries that practice Sharia, some of the protections granted to women against rape don't seem to exist (there's been quite a few instances of women being stoned to death as adulturers for being Raped), given what we know of Fatwas (Islamic legal opinion) and how they differ from English Common Law precedent - I don't think you can say with certainty that the prohibitions exist as you describe them.

As I said , there are many legal schools making interpretations. They do not always agree with each other. I also said there are cultural practices. Some Islamic schools interpret the Qu'ran to support such practices. These are NOT universally agreed on by Muslims.

I'm not defending Islam - it's messy and complex. What I am saying is that your views of the religion are warped. You condemn a whole religion from the actions of a minority. Sure, there are groups I dislike and condemn their practices - just as I do with Christianity. There are other groups I admire.

Again - a bit of Context is needed here - FWIW - I happened to be in the UK when Lee Rigby was murdered (on my Honeymoon in fact) People were pissed off, Pissed off people aren't particularly cautious or nuanced in their words. I went through the working class neighbourhoods near where I grew up - Flags were everywhere in tribute. In that same neighbourhood - someone smashed up a mosque and desecrated the Qu'rans there.

I've said as many times that Tommys working class background means he speaks carelessly (although he is getting better at being more nuanced) - it's not okay to go after an entire community, but it is okay to go after a Religion that not only explicitly allows this, but promises a reward of 77 virgins in Heaven for doing so.

Never happened over IRA attacks - no-one suggested taking out the Catholic Religion - even though priests supported and encouraged the terrorism. No-one suggested taking out all the Irish.

Islam has been demonized in ways similar to the way Hitler demonized the Jews ... and not to stop the terrorists, but for internal political gain .. stop listening to those who would demonize a religion ...

And what reward does Christianity offer to its followers?

Edit edit: I think it's also right to talk a little bit about those working class neighbourhoods I mentioned - they are the home of the quintessential Chav - and whilst I could wax lyrical about tales of their antisocial disposition and their ability to be offensive to anyone and everyone - I can't recall any serious religious resentment - TBH I think the Sikhs got a harder time than the Muslims, simply on account of their Turbans - and even then - they weren't social pariahs - mainly because they upheld those bare minimum of british values that I referenced.

I see angry young men - hanging their anger on a cause - the cause doesn't matter - any cause will do. Mods and Rockers ... skinheads - all angry young men ..

Which is what I think it's right to end on - for all the critical talk of Islam, If someone wants to believe in Allah, pray 5 times a day facing Mecca, undertake the Haj etc. etc. - I've got no problem with that, I'll also be sure not to offer them a Beer and Bacon Sammich - we'll get on like a house on fire.

Nice - but you do demonize Islam.

[Banditbandit]

Seriously, are you too, that scared of being accused of being a racist that you can't concede that Tommy Robinson's activism stems from the knowledge that Pakistani Muslims have been treated completely differently in the eyes of the law to the average English person and that the English justice system completely failed to protect over 1500 English girls?

You should go for a job at Rotherham Council.

I nearly laughed at that - the final sentence. But the rest is too serious for humour.

Can't you dickheads see that Katman is right .. or do you just don't like the idea that you might agree with the Kat?

Yes, Robinson deserves to be in jail for his actions .. His anger (and therefore his actions) are prompted by his outrage at the failure in the system ..

[pritch]

And if it was your Daughter and granddaughters being systematically raped - would you be happy if the Police told you to "stop looking for problems."

Somehow, I think not...

What insanity took you there from anything I said? Talk about the logically impaired. You and katman should both fuck off and get your meds checked.

What I said was that Robinson has always been a thug. Before this he was just into giving opposition football fans the bash (and the odd cop?). Now it's muslims. He's just doing what thugs do, don't complicate things, apparently it confuses you.

[husaberg]

Seriously, are you too, that scared of being accused of being a racist that you can't concede that Tommy Robinson's activism stems from the knowledge that Pakistani Muslims have been treated completely differently in the eyes of the law to the average English person and that the English justice system completely failed to protect over 1500 English girls?

You should go for a job at Rotherham Council.

The inquiry as far as i am concerned did not say the police or the legal system did not investigate due to fear of being labeled racist that was directed at the Councillors.

the report actually said in regards to race.

Asian perpetrators
The majority of those behind the abuse were described as Asian, while the victims were young white girls.
Yet the report found that councillors failed to engage with the town's Pakistani-heritage community during the inquiry period.
Some councillors were said to have hoped the issue would "go away", thinking it was a "one-off problem".
several staff members were afraid they would be labelled racist if they identified the race of the perpetrators, while others said they were instructed by their managers not to do so.
Several councillors interviewed believed highlighting the race element would "give oxygen" to racist ideas and threaten community cohesion.

The report said the "collective failures" of political and officer leadership were "blatant" over the first 12 years covered by the inquiry.
Senior managers within social care were said to have "underplayed" the scale and seriousness of the problem.
Staff were said to have believed the extent of CSE had been exaggerated, while some were "overwhelmed" by the numbers of cases involved.
Police were said to have given CSE no priority, regarding many child victims "with contempt" and failing to act on their abuse as a crime.

As has already been stated it is not a simple issue of victims coming forward and making complaints of rape and it being ignored.
This is not how it transpired.

Despite identifying "systemic failings", the report highlighted "many improvements" by the council and police over the past four years.
Police have been trained and resourced to deal with CSE, while there was now a central team in children's social care that worked jointly with police on the issue, the report said.
It made 15 recommendations in total to Rotherham Council, its partners and the Rotherham Safeguarding Children Board.
These included areas involving risk assessment, looked-after children, outreach and accessibility, the joint police and council CSE team, collaboration with Children and Young People Service, ongoing work with victims, post-abuse support, quality assurance, minority ethnic communities and the issue of race, and serious case reviews.

The latest series of arrests are a result of an investigation Operation Shelter that started in 2014 after two victims separately came forward to police.
the people convicted were actually Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, Iranian, Iraqi, Kurdish, Turkish, Albanian and Eastern European.

AS for Rotheram
April 2007 An investigation into the grooming and sexual abuse of young boys identifies more than 70 alleged victims. A man is convicted of offences against 10 children.
2008 Operation Central is set up to investigate other men believed to be involved in child sexual exploitation.
Arrests started to be made from November 2010.
So to Say or infer that this was any way the resiult of any activities of AKA is trite. as this as years before he was even involved.
P

[YellowDog]

Wiki states that he owns a Sunbed shop in Luton. I thought those were otherwise known as knocking shops ?

Prostitution is not legal in the UK

[TheDemonLord]

What insanity took you there from anything I said? Talk about the logically impaired. You and katman should both fuck off and get your meds checked.

What I said was that Robinson has always been a thug. Before this he was just into giving opposition football fans the bash (and the odd cop?). Now it's muslims. He's just doing what thugs do, don't complicate things, apparently it confuses you.

Your apathy, expressed as "stop looking for problems." is in the same vein as what the police and authorities did when these crimes were occurring.

So, I'm asking that if you were in the position of those that Tommy and his community found themselves in, would you be happy with that same apathetic statement if it was your family that this was happening to?

I don't think you would be.

[Katman]

What I said was that Robinson has always been a thug. Before this he was just into giving opposition football fans the bash (and the odd cop?). Now it's muslims. He's just doing what thugs do, don't complicate things, apparently it confuses you.

We understand that you don't like Tommy Robinson.

Some of us can understand the reasoning behind Tommy Robinson's actions though.

Clearly you can't.

[TheDemonLord]

OK - let's go ..

And there are base equivalents that all Muslims would share .. but like Christianity - a whole lot they would disagree on. Even the Trinity is not agreed on

The question comes down to percentages and what is in the Qu'ran and surrounding Hadiths - In the Bible (and I'm going from pure memory here) there is a single book (leviticus - which is Hebrew for "the laws" I think) - outlines the Crimes and punishments.

Some of which (for me) are some very interesting laws - for example, the prohibition against shellfish - in modern times it's completely silly, but for a predominantly desert dwelling people, where an outbreak of Norovirus could kill multiple members of the extended tribe - in particular the Elders and the Children - it's completely sensible.

With Christianity, however, you have the teachings of Jesus which paraphrased is: Believe in God, Don't be a Cunt - essentially nullifying all the old testament laws and teaching (although for some reason, they still don't like Gay people...).

Whereas with Islam, the concept of Sharia is much MUCH more developed and there is no such qualifier in Islam that there is when compared to Christianity. Essentially we have 5th century thinking and legal structures without the modifier that exists within Christianity. This is where some of the conflict occurs.

Understandable (but not excusable). It is in the western countries where they are confronted by Islamic hatred, and see pictures every day on TV of anti-Islamic action.

That is not to excuse terrorism - but goes some way to explain attitudes to terrorism among Muslims in the west.

From where did the hatred come from? Now, I'll grant you a degree of colonial hangover, but it seems that things such as the actions of the Ayotollah in the 70s? The Salman Rushdie affair and yes - Israel vs Everyone else has somewhat shaped popular opinion. Furthermore, the resurgence of concepts that were relics of a less-civilized time re-occurring: Honor killings is the prime example. This is something that is fundamentally opposed to our principles. We can acknowledge that Murder is bad regardless and we can acknowledge that we have Murders in the west - however, killing your own family for a concept such as Honor? There is nothing more dishonorable to us.

Then futhermore why do they want to live in Western countries? This is not a justification for the Hatred, but it seems to me, that there is something good and desirable in the West - It's something that we have spilt blood over, something that is worthy of hanging onto, something that is incompatible with some tenants of Islam - and it's here that the conflict arises IMO.

Yes - and you come from Britain. During the provos bombing campaign did anyone suggest taking out all the Irish? Support for the provos was high, but did anyone blame Ireland, or did they blame the provos?

From direct experience - I can't remember much of the Troubles - I can remember a lot of waffle on differentiation between the IRA and the Real IRA. But it's an area I've not read too much on. One distinction I think that is valid is that the IRA didn't want to get rid of Western values - they just wanted self-autonomy. That's a pretty important difference - Attacking me because you just want to be left alone is different from Attacking me because you want to destroy who I am.

Can you give equivalent figures for Christians involved in sex crimes? Humans are fucked up things .. I'll bet the number of Christians involved in sex crimes in Britain is higher than the number of Muslims.

How about this - I'll concede that the number of individual christians involved in Sex Crimes is higher (because it probably is) - At a stretch, I could concede that the catholic policy of Celibacy for Priests probably had a causal effect on it, but compare with the excerpt from the Hadith that I posted where a sunnah is quoted to legitimise Rape as part of war. Although in the Old Testament there are stories of battles and what happened after the battle (namely rape and pillage) I don't believe there is anything in Leviticus or in the wider part of the Bible that explicitly allows this behavior, in the same way that it does for Islam.

The right hand are members of the community - the Umma - Muslims eat with the hand - the right hand - in a shared bowl. The left hand is used to wipe yourself, and NEVER goes i the food bowl. It's an Arabic metaphor and the meaning is not the same in English.

Yes - not al Muslims agree ..

I think the point is - sure, not all Muslims agree, but those that do can point directly to their Holy Book to provide justification for their actions.

Yes - there are. How they are applied depends on the legal school making the judgement. Yes, there are things in the Qu'ran that not all Muslims agree with. Just as there are things in the Bible ..

I don't think the phrasing of that statement is entirely correct - namely that in the Qu'ran they are explicitly stated, whereas in the Bible they are more implicit - as I said at the beginning, Sharia is much more fully developed compared to the Bible.

Yeah - Mohammed was at war with the leaders of the cities - especially Mecca and Medina .. read it in that context .

I think you miss my point - when Mohammed didn't have an Army at his command, he preached a much stronger message of love and tolerance - when he got strength of arms - it was much more domineering.

As I said , there are many legal schools making interpretations. They do not always agree with each other. I also said there are cultural practices. Some Islamic schools interpret the Qu'ran to support such practices. These are NOT universally agreed on by Muslims.

I'm not defending Islam - it's messy and complex. What I am saying is that your views of the religion are warped. You condemn a whole religion from the actions of a minority. Sure, there are groups I dislike and condemn their practices - just as I do with Christianity. There are other groups I admire.

For sure - I condemn that parts of their holy book that some people interpret literally, which in turn condemns the religion as a whole. Now, if Islam as a whole rejects those parts or at least updates the interpretation, I would relent somewhat.

Never happened over IRA attacks - no-one suggested taking out the Catholic Religion - even though priests supported and encouraged the terrorism. No-one suggested taking out all the Irish.

Dunno about you - but I certainly advocated that Catholicism should be held responsible for the IRA, For that very reason.

Islam has been demonized in ways similar to the way Hitler demonized the Jews ... and not to stop the terrorists, but for internal political gain .. stop listening to those who would demonize a religion ...

I disagree with this assessment - at least in the Working Class communities of England, they didn't care about Islam, until Muslims started acting up. As for demonizing a religion, part of the problem (that I see) is that certain parts of society don't want to have a brutally honest conversation about the parts of Islam that allow for these acts to be permissible. If we could have that frank and honest conversation, I think it would soothe a good deal of the anguish - instead we have the likes of "This has nothing to do with Islam" - when it patently has something to do with Islam, because it's almost exclusively Muslims doing it.

And what reward does Christianity offer to its followers?

For acts of Terrorism? Well that would be Eternity in Hell, Suicide bombings - Eternity in Hell - both of these are Mortal sins. It's why the I believe the IRA never really went with Suicide bombings as a tactic.

The only absolution for a Mortal sin is to repent, now I believe part of the Catholic theology that Repentance has to be genuine. I don't think Protestants have a similar concept, with the exception that Murder is explicitly against the 10 commandments with no exception, whereas for a large amount of Islamic law - there is a strata of laws that apply to Muslims and a different strata that applies to everyone else.

I see angry young men - hanging their anger on a cause - the cause doesn't matter - any cause will do. Mods and Rockers ... skinheads - all angry young men ..

And to be honest - I agree in part, I see the anger too, but I think that underpinning part of the Anger are some legitimate grievances.

Nice - but you do demonize Islam.

Well....


I am a Demon Lord....

BaDum CHA!

But in seriousness, there are parts of Islam I'm highly critical of, I don't like how some Clerics and Imams handwave these parts away or at least acknowledge what is written in the Qu'ran and Haddiths (even if they then proceed to provide the interpretation of it).

I'd like nothing more than for all this hostility to end - and I'll invoke Tommy himself when he talks about what his life was before the Wahhabist/Salafist influence amongst British Muslims - he talks about all the Muslim friends he had growing up and how they were part of the community.

[husaberg]

Your apathy, expressed as "stop looking for problems." is in the same vein as what the police and authorities did when these crimes were occurring.

So, I'm asking that if you were in the position of those that Tommy and his community found themselves in, would you be happy with that same apathetic statement if it was your family that this was happening to?

I don't think you would be.

AKA lives in Luton
i am not from the UK but that is nowhere near Rotheram it would be 100's of KMs away.
It is not his community at all, unless you are meaning because he is not an immigrant.
But wait he practically is......Seeing as both his parents were immigrants.
I should also point out that the families were in most cases not aware either, that their children were being abused, as they didn't tell them or the police either.
Thats the issue with cases such as this its not a black and white as you would like it to be.