Tommy Robinson

[TheDemonLord]

So the system is dealing with crimes by muslims now, and with idiots that interfere.

Big improvement.

Is it?
Have they raided various Mosques that were run by Imams and Clerics that were preaching an ISIS-style version of Islam?
Have they shutdown the so-called "Sharia Courts"?
Have they stopped calling Islam a religion of Peace?
Have the so-called moderate wing of Islam come out in force and openly condemned these crimes?
Have they investigated the flow of money from various Saudi-based Wahabi organizations into certain Islamic lobby groups?

No?

Well - not really a BIG improvement then, is it?

[Banditbandit]

I agree - but it seems to me that those better ways have been tried and failed...

I'll appeal to your Anarchistic tendencies - When legitimate means fail, what is left apart from illegitimate means?

Yeah - I might agree

BUT

There's questions of fair trials and justice involved - so no, I think that over rides any sort of protest.

[TheDemonLord]

Yeah - I might agree

BUT

There's questions of fair trials and justice involved - so no, I think that over rides any sort of protest.

3 questions then:

considering that in the UK there is press coverage of criminal cases, what is the standard between a case where the Media get free reign and a case where they get gagged?

Following on from that Question, there is a social contract of sorts that is predicated on any judge who issues a Gag order that they will do so free from any political bias, issuing it only on the strictest merits of the case. Given the systemic failings at multiple levels for cases of this nature, the judiciary has breached that Social Contract - how then can we be sure that subsequent Gag orders are being applied correctly?

Which brings me to the final point - if we (the public) do not have confidence that the Gag orders are being properly implemented - free from Political machinations or fear from being labelled as racist or other failings that Rotherham revealed - what option is there, other than to violate it?

I'll appeal again to your anarchistic streak - each of us (being moral agents) understands that the Law is a best effort basis to codify into words the highest principles of Justice and fairness that we (as a nation) collectively possess. Being that it is a best effort, the Law is invariably sometimes wrong or applied incorrectly or abused.

We then have a choice (as moral agents) to adhere to a corrupt law or not. And when all legal and legitimate means of protest, debate and activism to change a corrupt law (or legal principle) - then as Moral Agents - we are left with a single recourse - which is Civil disobedience.

[Banditbandit]

I think I didn't frame the question properly - the Issues I referred to was that of Muslim Pedophile gangs, not the issue of Tommy himself.

Clearly the pedophile gangs are being dealt with - that's why they were in court ... the direct issue around Robinson his his contempt of court.

The problem seems to stem from the fact that a significant proportion of the English public have lost all faith in the integrity of the justice system when it comes to dealing with crime within the Muslim community.

A lo of that is based on Fake News - which has distorted public perceptions.

Like this shit ..

https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/07/...public-purity/

You're missing a key point - the causal factor for all of Tommy's activism - that being a systemic silencing and ignoring of some exceptionally serious crimes being committed by a certain demographic.

That statement needs backing up .. like, which crimes are being ignored? How do YOU know tyhey are being commited?

To be clear - I'm originally from the UK - and the news does report on court cases and even ongoing court cases. So why the Gag order? It's entirely possible that it is just for the purpose as stated - fair trial etc.

There are reasons for a gag order - usually to ensure a fair trail but also to protect witnesses, victims - and sometimes those reasons are made public - but sometimes to make public the reasons for the gag order would be to make public what the courts do not want made public.

But, it is also possible that it is part of the same systemic silencing that caused the issue in the first place.

Can you PROVE a systematic silencing anywhere? In any shape or form?

Then there is the issue - how can you be certain of a fair judicial process for Tommy, when objectively, the judicial process has been anything but fair in respect to the grooming gangs?

Contempt of Court is not a trial process - the judge has the power to sentence. Usually because the judge witnesses the contempt - as he did in this case.

The institutions integrity is predicated on fairness - and the Rotherham scandal (both in terms of length of time and seriousness of the offending) has severely tarnished that reputation.

How? back up that statement.

Is it?
Have they raided various Mosques that were run by Imams and Clerics that were preaching an ISIS-style version of Islam?

Preaching is only speaking - the law only bans Hate Speech - it does not limit free-speech. Don't go down that path - it leads to limits on free speech

Have they shutdown the so-called "Sharia Courts"?

Woud it surprise you to learn that the major religions in New ZEaland have CGHurch courts? Go here - describes the Presbyterian Church courts.

The last person I know of to be tried ina church court was Lloyd Geering - charged with heresy - found not guilty.

https://teara.govt.nz/en/presbyterian-church/page-3

How are Muslim courts different from this?

Have they stopped calling Islam a religion of Peace?

Islam is NOT one single group - it is just as disparate as Christianity, with two major groups - Sunni and Shi'ite ... and then other groupings within that. Islam is generally a religion of Peace - the minority of Wahhabism followers are the problem ..

Have the so-called moderate wing of Islam come out in force and openly condemned these crimes?

Clearly they have - but the western media rarely reports Muslims condemning the actions of a crazy minority.

Have they investigated the flow of money from various Saudi-based Wahabi organizations into certain Islamic lobby groups?

No?

Not easy to do - or even to action - How do you investigate and stop another country placing its money where it likes/ That is called Sovereignty - and we would object if people tried to impose on us.

Yes - Saudi Arabia is the largest and most powerful group of Wahhabism ... and that is a worry ..

[Katman]

A lot of that is based on Fake News - which has distorted public perceptions.

Dude seriously, the numerous inquiries and reports that have been conducted into this child exploitation scandal can hardly be called fake news.

[Banditbandit]

Dude seriously, the numerous inquiries and reports that have been conducted into this child exploitation scandal can hardly be called fake news.

No - I was not meaning that specific incident .. but there is a whole range of fake news out here - all designed to warp people's view of Islam - and it seems to work ..

[Banditbandit]

Here's one I bet you all LOVE ..

http://www.tehrantimes.com/news/4245...uted-on-Monday

[Katman]

No - I was not meaning that specific incident .. but there is a whole range of fake news out here - all designed to warp people's view of Islam - and it seems to work ..

The Rotherham incident would have had a profound impact on many peoples view of how the English system deals with crime within the Muslim community.

To even attempt to link this incident to your fake news story shows your level of desperation.

[Banditbandit]

The Rotherham incident would have had a profound impact on many peoples view of how the English system deals with crime within the Muslim community.

To even attempt to link this incident to your fake news story shows your level of desperation.

Oh crap ... I knew very little about the Rotherham incident until last week - following this thread and going to look.

This is from the House of Commins investigation and report from 2012.

The failure to address the abuse was attributed to a combination of factors revolving around race, class and gender—contemptuous and sexist attitudes toward the mostly working-class victims; fear that the perpetrators' ethnicity would trigger allegations of racism and damage community relations; the Labour council's reluctance to challenge a Labour-voting ethnic minority; lack of a child-centred focus; a desire to protect the town's reputation; and lack of training and resources

Yes - this does address the issues of ethnicity and race - and lots of other failings as well. Race and class - sexist attitudes, proect the town's reputation.

I am in no way suggesting that this is Fake News - nor even attempting to link it to fake news. Clearly this will have damaged the reputation of the system.

What I am saying is that people's general distrust of the system is pushed by Fake News that is put out there to damage Islam. This alone damages perceptions - as it is intended to do.

The Rotherham abuses quite justifiably damage people's trust in the system .. it adds to the problem.

[Banditbandit]

PS - I am no more a supporter of Islam than I am of Christianity ..

[Katman]

Oh crap ... I knew very little about the Rotherham incident until last week - following this thread and going to look.

Like you, I knew nothing about the Rotherham scandal before starting this thread.

It does go some way towards explaining the degree of contempt that the likes of Tommy Robinson have for the system though.

[Katman]

Yes - Saudi Arabia is the largest and most powerful group of Wahhabism ... and that is a worry ..

Doesn't appear to be a worry for America.

They're still happy to supply Saudi Arabia with the means to bomb the fuck out of Yemen.

[TheDemonLord]

Clearly the pedophile gangs are being dealt with - that's why they were in court ... the direct issue around Robinson his his contempt of court.

I see you and Katman have discussed the Pedohpile issue and why it's entirely relevant here - so I'll not go over that ground.

That statement needs backing up .. like, which crimes are being ignored? How do YOU know tyhey are being commited?

There are reasons for a gag order - usually to ensure a fair trail but also to protect witnesses, victims - and sometimes those reasons are made public - but sometimes to make public the reasons for the gag order would be to make public what the courts do not want made public.

Can you PROVE a systematic silencing anywhere? In any shape or form?

Contempt of Court is not a trial process - the judge has the power to sentence. Usually because the judge witnesses the contempt - as he did in this case.
How? back up that statement.[/quote]

See above.

Preaching is only speaking - the law only bans Hate Speech - it does not limit free-speech. Don't go down that path - it leads to limits on free speech

I'm no fan of Hate Speech laws, but I'll draw comparison to the Rwandan massacre - Preaching the death and destruction (whether it is an abstract flourish or fully malevolently intended) of the West/Western democracy is not protected by Free Speech.

To be clear - I've got no problem with Islamic leaders criticising the West - that is their want and right, I've got every problem when they tell impressionable young people that if they commit acts against the west and die in the process - they will go to Heaven with 77 Virgins.

Woud it surprise you to learn that the major religions in New ZEaland have CGHurch courts? Go here - describes the Presbyterian Church courts

I've got no love of them, however the Sharia courts in the UK have a history of some dubious, even illegal rulings.

Islam is NOT one single group - it is just as disparate as Christianity, with two major groups - Sunni and Shi'ite ... and then other groupings within that. Islam is generally a religion of Peace - the minority of Wahhabism followers are the problem ..

Sure - and if TPTB stood up and said "Islam is a religion of Peace, but there is a small subset who are using it for evil means" - that would go a long way to actually dealing with the problem.

That said - there are parts of the Qu'ran that explicitly allow for violence, in a way that is different from the New Testament

Clearly they have - but the western media rarely reports Muslims condemning the actions of a crazy minority.

There are a few reformist clerics and Imams - who have espoused views that Islam needs to undergo something akin to the renaissance and the enlightenment - they are in the Minority and are often ostracized from the Islamic community - some have even reported Death threats and other such actions against them.

There's a secondary issue that there is a veil of silence within some Islamic communities - some of it is cultural, some of it is also seated in a belief that whilst they may not like the extremists - they are still following the Qu'ran and therefore are still good muslims.

Not easy to do - or even to action - How do you investigate and stop another country placing its money where it likes/ That is called Sovereignty - and we would object if people tried to impose on us.

Yes - Saudi Arabia is the largest and most powerful group of Wahhabism ... and that is a worry ..

I'll draw a comparision to what the USSR was doing in the 50s through to 70s - actively financing Union groups, Marxist institutions and other far-left organizations - When it became clear that McCarthy was right, we pressured those groups to sever ties with the Communist bloc.

I think something similar can be done - however, as Katman points out - that would rather upset the Saudis.

[Banditbandit]

Like you, I knew nothing about the Rotherham scandal before starting this thread.

It does go some way towards explaining the degree of contempt that the likes of Tommy Robinson have for the system though.

Doesn't appear to be a worry for America.

They're still happy to supply Saudi Arabia with the means to bomb the fuck out of Yemen.

Yes to both .. The likes of Robinson will trash the immigrants for not adopting the ways of British culture and society - and then refuse to follow those ways themselves

[WALRUS]

Just to put in my own two cents..

If people like Mr Yaxley-Lennon are so confident, sure, and proud of how right they are to incite hate and all these negative vibes.. Why hide behind an array of monikers and aliases?