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Thread: Speeduino 2T EFI Project

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post


    Not something I have dabbled with but it seems to be a standard feature of EFI systems I have seen so must be useful. Maybe useful for engines with starters and there is a voltage drop when the motor is being cranked over.
    Everything modern mists the secondries while the motor is turning over on the starter as far as I know. They must only be half open or summat though, since they never flood...except stupid fucking MV. They have a counter keeping track of starter revolutions as well as crank revolutions. So when the starter clutch slips even a tiny bit, the fuckers shut the coils down and just wind over and over.

    But I digress. Lekky start injected motors just run rich as fuck to get themselves to fire.

  2. #107
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    Unlike the Ignitec and Ecotrons EFI system which could both be triggered from the same pickup. The Ignitec needs a single tooth trigger and the Speedy a multi tooth wheel. So as well as a trigger for the Ignition I needed an additional and separate trigger for the Speedy EFI system.

    Space is limited but the easy answer is to cut a slot in the side cover and glue the Speedy trigger in there. The red 12 Volt diode hanging from the primary Injector plug is there so I can see if the Speedy is responding to the new pickup.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Setting up the trigger angle in Tuning Studio.

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    On my engine with the piston at TDC the crank has to rotate CCW 205 deg for the number one tooth to align with the trigger sensor. The number one tooth is the first tooth after the gap.

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    In "Trigger Setup" 205 is entered in the "Trigger Angle (Deg)" field.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by patouille View Post
    As you said staged injection is more appropriate, I was planning to use it but it turned out that my Suzuki 600GSR injector could achieve the best idle stability (~1100 µs PW at 2200 RPM) I ever had with any carburetor

    Despite the bike achieving all of its regular RPM range in the video (~14000RPM), it was with the bike on its stand. On the road I'm currently having some trouble over 10000RPM. I tried different mappings with no effect. I'm still working on it...
    For more info, you can see our facebook page (sorry in french).
    Although it works for idle and high rpm no load. I think your injector might be "to big" to be operating in the controlled fuel zone at idle and low rpm and low Loads. And "to small" to deliver enough fuel in the short time available at high rpm and high loads on the road. Proper staged injection may be needed. Although working in the dribble zone then the controlled zone could be pseudo staged injection, interesting idea.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  4. #109
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    Hello from here in Finland!

    This is very interesting project to follow. I was struggling with the same things and problems in my own project (Honda CR500AF EFI). For the diffence is that I have microsquirt ecu. The biggest problems are kick back at startup. Several broken parts like: crankcases, clutch, kick start lever...

    Another situation is define 2T load. Now I have alpha-N method. It is not accurate enough for iceroadracing. The engine should work range 3000-10000rpm. I've been thinking about for a few years Exhaust pipe and chamber pressure difference to determine the load. Megasquirt does not just give it a good chance. I'm thinking about whether it would be possible toa separate controller make "MAP" signal from exhaust pipe and chamber pressure difference. The pressure measured on both signals at the right time window and their pressure difference is made with a 0-5v signal to the ECU map input. In addition EGT correction factor. In principle, the result should be good compared to alpha-N method.

    Some project images: https://team1000.kuvat.fi/kuvat/J%C3...00AF+projekti/
    And a few test video https://www.youtube.com/user/TeamTonni/videos

    PS: sorry bad english

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iceroadracer View Post
    Now I have alpha-N method. It is not accurate enough for iceroadracing. The engine should work range 3000-10000rpm. I've been thinking about for a few years Exhaust pipe and chamber pressure difference to determine the load. Megasquirt does not just give it a good chance. I'm thinking about whether it would be possible to separate controller make "MAP" signal from exhaust pipe and chamber pressure difference. The pressure measured on both signals at the right time window and their pressure difference is made with a 0-5v signal to the ECU map input. In addition EGT correction factor. In principle, the result should be good compared to alpha-N method.

    If you have a ECU that will take a MAP input then Alpha-N with a bit of MAP should be good.

    I have experimented with a Arduino Nano and MCP4725 I2C DAC Digital to Analogue Breakout module for the Arduino. The objective was to find a suitable pressure reading and use the Nano to present it to the EFI's CPU as a MAP value. Most Arduino's don't have a analog output. They say they do, but it is really PWM. But by using a DAC you could develop something suitable for what you want with a Arduino Nano.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Arduino Nano on a breakout board, add on MCP4725 I2C DAC and a MAP sensor on the bikes crankcase.

    Some of Iceroadracer's project images: https://team1000.kuvat.fi/kuvat/J%C3...00AF+projekti/ .. Great work, very impressive.

  6. #111
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    Another possibility is a NO2C 3rd party Speeduino board. MAP and two injector channels, so staged injection is possible. Code is open source so you could modify it to suit your needs.

    https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/3rd_party

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  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    Although it works for idle and high rpm no load. I think your injector might be "to big" to be operating in the controlled fuel zone at idle and low rpm and low Loads. And "to small" to deliver enough fuel in the short time available at high rpm and high loads on the road. Proper staged injection may be needed. Although working in the dribble zone then the controlled zone could be pseudo staged injection, interesting idea.
    I made an experiment on the dyno with the original carb (keihin PWK 28) measuring the fuel quantity over a given duration at full throttle. According to my calculations, it uses 43cc/min at 13300rpm.
    The injector is a 200cc/min at 3bar. So it's way too big for low rpms but it should flow way enough at full throttle/high rpm. I know the theory requires staged injection but today my experiments are showing the opposite.
    Anyway I'm looking for injectors with a lower flow rate but it's hard to find Bosch ev14k-like injectors with lower flow rate.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by patouille View Post
    I know the theory requires staged injection but today my experiments are showing the opposite.
    Your results are interesting.

    Any of the common EFI CPU's all have a lot of complicated car orientated complexity and Tuning HMI interface. Your project has got me thinking, it does not have to be that complicated. Something very simple using an Arduino Nano or similar could do the job for racing two strokes.

    The missing piece to the puzzle, is being able to see changes in airflow as the strength of the resonant activity in the pipe changes. The answer to that, is what I am looking for now. Currently I have to work with what I have got but when we know what to do. I think I will look at making a ECU setup like yours. I think a simpler approach than a Link or any of the other car based systems could be very effective for racing two strokes.

  9. #114
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    What's wrong with an airflow meter?

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew View Post
    What's wrong with an airflow meter?
    The vain types tend to flap around until they break off then the engine happily swallows it. The hot wire type, the engine loves to spit on the hot wire and cool it off, just for fun and to confuse the ECU.

    I think some of the big bikes with large air box's have been able to use MAF meters but on a single close to the engine they are not much use.

    The fallacy and problems with trying to adapt four stroke air flow tech to a two stroke has been discussed on the Ecotrons and ESE thread in some depth.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    The vain types tend to flap around until they break off then the engine happily swallows it. The hot wire type, the engine loves to spit on the hot wire and cool it off, just for fun and to confuse the ECU.

    I think some of the big bikes with large air box's have been able to use MAF meters but on a single close to the engine they are not much use.

    The fallacy and problems with trying to adapt four stroke air flow tech to a two stroke has been discussed on the Ecotrons and ESE thread in some depth.
    There is a newer hot wire like system that uses a plastic film protected on one side.

    Hot Film

    Hot-film MAF sensors function much like a hot wire sensor, and used a centrally-heated film or metallic grid-type element. One side of the film encounters cooling airflow, while the shielded backside maintains a consistent temperature, and the current differential between the two is measured and relayed as a square-wave digital frequency output, between around 30Hz at idle and 150Hz at wide-open throttle. Hot film sensors tend to be more robust and less susceptible to contamination than hot-wire types.
    I think you could move the sensor away from the inlet to the inlet of A SEALED airbox
    remember how much air it uses in a .25 of a second

    B​UT IF YOU WERE SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH YOU COULD CREATE A SPEED DENSITY SYSTEM USING MUILTIPLE MAP SENSORS AND TACHO OUTPUTS PLUS TPS
    sorry re caps
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    B​UT IF YOU WERE SOPHISTICATED ENOUGH YOU COULD ........
    I is not sophisticated enough .......

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    I is not sophisticated enough .......
    I was meaning the software
    what i are refring to is a Speed density EFI system
    https://www.hotrod.com/articles/elec...l-injection-2/
    GM did it in the 90's
    http://support.moates.net/theory-speed-density/
    http://www.ecutek.com/Products/Trade.../Speed-Density
    https://www.onallcylinders.com/2018/...ity-best-ride/
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  14. #119
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    Speed Density is well known. My issue is to be able to read changes in airflow through the motor. Changes that happen as the strength of the resonant action in the pipe changes and therefor the strength of the suction action of the pipe drawing mixture up from the crankcase.

    There are issues, like at idle the pressure in the crankcase is higher, near atmospheric. Than at full torque where the average crankcase pressure is a little lower.

    And there are more issues, like at idle there is quite a high MAP reading of the difference between high and low crankcase pressures but when you open the throttle about half way the MAP value of the difference drops to about a quarter. Easy to understand when you realize the descending piston is chasing the air out of the open inlet instead of compressing it.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZ350 View Post
    .
    Speed Density is well known. My issue is to be able to read changes in airflow through the motor. Changes that happen as the strength of the resonant action in the pipe changes and therefor the strength of the suction action of the pipe drawing mixture up from the crankcase.

    There are issues, like at idle the pressure in the crankcase is higher, near atmospheric. Than at full torque where the average crankcase pressure is a little lower.
    My thoughts are to map all the variables with a carb on (as we know that maps create and responds to the variables)measuring fuel flow plus all the different pressure readings then create a truth table of how the EFI needs to respond in these circumstances.
    Basically what Riley Will did but create a far more in depth map of the pressures involved as well.
    the beauty is once you have this map you will have a system that will be able to be readily adapted to any two stroke.
    Those pressure changes are actually what is preventing the simple alpha N system working on a High output racing 2 stroke.
    Other than maybe Honda i doubt anyone as mapped out all the pressures changes with a carb and a full array of pressure transducers to attempt to get it fully right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

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