The 1080 debate

[tigertim20]

So why do they continue to use aerial spreading in areas that are perfectly accessible?

And particularly in areas that are adjacent to farming areas?

1. It's controlled and kept away from farms and farm animals
2. economy of scale - f you have a solution that has proven to be effective, why spend additional money running multiple operations?

It all comes back to money Paul.

No.
As has been explained more than once, it comes down to:
1. Accessibility
2. efficiency
3. money

Side note - you keep coming back to the money point so let's pretend for a minute that money was the only issue - my question then becomes " do you really think 1080 deaths are a bigger concern than the farcical state of underfunding facing key areas of national / social concern such as housing, education, healthcare, and so on?

I seem to remember it originally coming to my attention after seeing videos of unintended victims of 1080.

And who do you think likely created and distributed this video?
and before you say the poor loving owner of a horse . . . remember that the 1080 protesters at parliament recently presented with dead animals that were shown to have died from blunt force trauma, and not 1080 as claimed by protesters.

Probably through indiscriminate spreading of the bait.

Can you provide actual evidence, perhaps something peer reviewed or independently proven that shows the spreading is indiscriminate? keyword = independently

[husaberg]

Gene tech could sort it out with a bit more research.
Of course, the same dickheads who are against 1080 are also against its most obvious alternative

(that should be good for another ten pages...)

Yip there was some very promisng research in turning of their reproductive cycle in a way that is only relevant to marsupials, not to most other mammals.
https://www.landcareresearch.co.nz/_...of_possums.pdf
The Aussies were a bit concerned about it but the loonies would have utter conniptions.
the problem is if it was delivered say by a bait station you could have killed them while they were there.
but last i heard they were hoping to use a flee or a parasite specific to possums to transmit it.

A similar form of idea could be used for mustelids such as stoats and weasels ferrets as there is a unique feature where they can delay and postpone a pregnancy gestation in times of feed shortages.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7014860
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryonic_diapause
if you could turn that on you could cut down their reproduction ability.

[Ruahine]

The 1080 "debate" is no debate as far as I am concerned.

There are currently no viable alternatives for mammalian pest control in most of our backcountry. I volunteer doing pest control in the Waitakeres and I know that the density of bait stations and access lines required makes effective hand baiting/trapping impossible for most areas of NZ.

That said, there are some successful hand baiting/trapping projects being done successfully in more accessible areas (such as the Waitakeres). I have friends involved in trapping being done for Whio (Blue duck) in the Ruahine but the Whio project has the advantage of being based around river valleys which can be accessed on foot and in any event these are also being supported by 1080 drops.

I have seen first hand the difference a 1080 drop makes in improving bird life and if is a choice between saving our native birds and the humane treatment of possums I would choose the birds every time.

However going forward we need alternatives. 1080 is only ever going to be a temporary damage-limitation measure. Perhaps the most promising alternative is a gene drive-based, sterile possum/stoat release. Unfortunately this technology is many years off and in the current NZ legal environment, the release of GMO animals is not likely to be approved. It would be good to see more investment in 1080 alternatives but in the meantime 1080 drops need to continue or there will be nothing left to protect.

There is a technical paper from the royal society on potential for gene drive technology on pest control in NZ which may be of interest.

https://royalsociety.org.nz/assets/U...ical-paper.pdf

[Katman]

I have seen first hand the difference a 1080 drop makes in improving bird life and if is a choice between saving our native birds and the humane treatment of possums I would choose the birds every time.

And what effect is 1080 having on the insect populations in our forests and bush?

After all, invertebrates are an essential part of any healthy ecosystem.

[Katman]

1. It's controlled and kept away from farms and farm animals

Tell that to the farmers of the animals who have died of 1080 poisoning.

[sugilite:Me]

I'm no fan of 1080, and I have had a few heated debates with my daughter, a botanical scientist - and acknowledge many of her points.
She has told me of a much less humane poison that is widely used, one can just stroll into Bunnings and buy it! It is called Brodifacoum. It can take weeks and even months to slowly painfully kill a critter.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodifacoum
I spent 2017 in Karamea on the West Coast. No shortage of 1080 opposition there. A guy from the buller council came around to tell us of the pending drop - brave thick skinned dude he was. I had a good talk with him, and he admitted it was all about protecting the local cow herds from TB. In other words, no cows would of = no 1080 drop, at least in our area. They been dropping it for a long time, and from my layperson perspective the vermin will regenerate just as fast as the native bird species, so stalemate in my opinion.
When I lived in a Totara stand/forest in Waitahora, Tararua for 15 years (yes - I like living in forests), there was a huge possum problem. My record was running over 12 over the 14 km road leading to the main road, nearly 1 per km! The local council started using this bait that had a cyanide tablet in the middle of quite a hard substance that smelt like crack for possums. The idea was only possums, rats and stoats had the jaw strength to get through it, so were thus the targeted vermin. Over a very short period, no possums were heard from or seen again. The council did it once a year and we barely ever saw possums again. So yes, there is a lot better way to do it than 1080, but it is more expensive. I'm happy to pay it via taxes. Tax tourists to help pay for it too, actually live up to clean green advertising hype. Way better than the forest I lived in Karamea that went dead silent days after the pre-mentioned drop - it was just horrible.
Caveat - usual KB patrons hammering on about providing peer approved evidence can fuck right off. I lived in a forest on the West Coast (yes really) for 8 months before the drop, and listened with much joy to all the bell birds, tuis and others every morning. After the drop - NOTHING. While living in the forest in Waitahora, there was never a drop in bird song after the dispensing of the more expensive poison.

[Swoop]

Only thats not how it works the areas near inhabited areas are excluded with wide margins ...

I wondered about the proposed drop in the Hunua ranges, where they stated that the drops would be 50m away from boundaries.
That is a very small distance, couple that with any wind drifts and the potential for baits to go off-target increases.

[Katman]

.....generally if domestic animals are killed its becuase they are trespassing on DOC land.

And if domestic animals are "trespassing on DOC land" it doesn't sound like that land is particularly 'inaccessible'.

[husaberg]

I wondered about the proposed drop in the Hunua ranges, where they stated that the drops would be 50m away from boundaries.
That is a very small distance, couple that with any wind drifts and the potential for baits to go off-target increases.

You dont get wind draft with helicopters as they have strong downforce.
they also dont apply in windy conditions
The baits are also heavy and sifted.
If you ever get the oportunity watch a helicopter spraying out a paddock. They are sub meter accurate.
The local health authority decides on the set backs.
Most i have seen are at least 80-100m


here is some water data.
https://www.niwa.co.nz/publications/...fter-1080-drop

[Ruahine]

And what effect is 1080 having on the insect populations in our forests and bush?

After all, invertebrates are an essential part of any healthy ecosystem.

I am aware of a few NZ studies looking at insects and 1080. Two showed no difference in the numbers of insects and other invertebrates before and after a 1080 drop, however they are old studies, some using carrot baits which are no longer used.

https://newzealandecology.org/system...col28_1_63.pdf

Another study fed ants with 1080 cereal baits and found a modest increase in mortality but overall showed the risk of to ants as part of a 1080 drop was negligible and also that the risk of secondary poisoning to birds eating ants was also negligible.

https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/2271

https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/2070

Another study showed that invertebrate levels around a 1080 bait were reduced compared to control baits, however whether this was avoidance or toxicity was not determined and invertebrate levels recovered within days.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/...eedAccess=true


There is also good evidence demonstrating that the numbers of native Powelliphanta snails improve dramatically post-1080, which is not surprising given they are predated by possums and rats.

[jellywrestler]

using carrot baits which are no longer used.

has anybody thought of all the poor snowmen who had their noses ripped off their faces so this could go ahead?

[husaberg]

Tell that to the farmers of the animals who have died of 1080 poisoning.

You really are showing you lack of understanding, the majority of the farmers support the use of 1080 (the few that dont suport it are avid hunters)their continued livelihood depends on effective TB control, It is them that contribute the money to control TB after all.
DOC do the rest and they use tax payer money, but they have no interset in TB control

Maybe you should talk to some farmers who has lost there whole herd to TB i can supply a few names for you.
The farmers who have lost animals to genuine mistakes are fully compensated for their losses.

And if domestic animals are "trespassing on DOC land" it doesn't sound like that land is particularly 'inaccessible'.

You seem to be confusing animals with humans and possibilities with practicalities.

I am still waiting for you go about naming all the posible large scale alternatives you mentioned on the first page

Cool then you will offer some viable alternatives it should be fun especially considering how little you know about 1080.

There are viable alternatives.

Yes, they might be more expensive - but that was the whole point behind post #1.

(And by the way, I'd feed 1080 to you in a heartbeat).

[Katman]

The farmers who have lost animals to genuine mistakes are fully compensated for their losses.

In the last case I read about, a farmer was offered 8 bales of silage for the loss of 8 two year old heifers. Heifers that the farmer estimated to be worth $2000 each.

You seem to be confusing animals with humans and possibilities with practicalities.

You're the one who keeps banging on about how inaccessible parts of New Zealand are. And I've already conceded that if they restricted their aerial operations to areas that truly were 'inaccessible', it would be a start towards finding some middle ground.

But the fact that stock appear to be able to wander onto certain areas doesn't suggest that they're 'inaccessible' by any stretch of the imagination.

[jafagsx250]

What sort of research is under way for deer repellent? Doc will never do it cos they're cunts and want all deer gone. Which will never ever happen.

But if they did. Most opposition to it would evaporate over night.

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

[husaberg]

In the last case I read about, a farmer was offered 8 bales of silage for the loss of 8 two year old heifers. Heifers that the farmer estimated to be worth $2000 each.

You're the one who keeps banging on about how inaccessible parts of New Zealand are. And I've already conceded that if they restricted their aerial operations to areas that truly were 'inaccessible', it would be a start towards finding some middle ground.

But the fact that stock appear to be able to wander onto certain areas doesn't suggest that they're 'inaccessible' by any stretch of the imagination.

Go on a show the account then.
I will give you a hint farmers are generally offered silage as compensation to exclude stock from areas to cary out operations.
Not to cover the death of animals.
You opinion regarding what or what isnt accessable is irelevent you dont get a choice in the mater you dont have any experence as you dont even really contribute much other than your ill consiered ill thought out opinion.

Personally i are still waiting for your viable alternatives you claimed existed earlier on for these inaccessable areas