The 1080 debate

[Woodman]

There's research being done on the idea of eradication via sterilisation.

And we should be encouraging a lot more effort into researching that sort of alternative.

That's great but while they are researching the 1080 drops need to continue until the research comes up with a viable alternative The end game is to restore the native species.

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[husaberg]

And if they limited their aerial drops to areas that truly are inaccessible, it would at least be a start.

For areas that are in fact accessible, trapping (and the associated business ventures that can arise from it) should be enthusiastically encouraged.

DOC and TB free currently do limit their drop to areas that are inaccessible.
Trapping is not an option , because large scale it doesn't work, because many animals are already trap shy, trapping is indiscriminate in the animals it catches (your words make this not an option),the traps have to be checked daily with hours of sunrise plus as proven in the past people that are trapping for a living do not reduce the population down to levels low enough to eradicate TB.
This is simply because they want to catch plenty of animals so they move on before the population density is lowered enough.
There is also the issue of once trapped how the animal is going to be killed this is most frequently achieved by beating the possum to death with a steel rod or hammer or drowning if its a stoat ferret or weasel
Also trapping for a fur industry raises the ire of Petna.
The other issue with large scale trapping is as soon as it starts the fur industry price collapses.
Thats without mentioning there is not anywhere near the required number of skilled people to do this.

There is reasons 1080 is used and that it is the safest method for aerial application, reasons that are unique to NZ and the properties unique to 1080 properties, maybe you should take the time to educate yourself as to why this is.

[TheDemonLord]

And if they limited their aerial drops to areas that truly are inaccessible, it would at least be a start.

For areas that are in fact accessible, trapping (and the associated business ventures that can arise from it) should be enthusiastically encouraged.

Would you be in favor of allowing for high capacity Magazines for Varmint calibres (.22 and under) as a means of encouraging individual NZers to help with the solution?

[Swoop]

1080 works and is getting rid of non native species ...

Can anyone explain how 1080 knows to only kill non-native species?

[husaberg]

Can anyone explain how 1080 knows to only kill non-native species?

Simple the toxin is most effective on mammals. NZ has only two native mammal species living in the wild Native bats and Seals.
The bat areas are excluded as are the Seal areas (ie the ocean.)
Humans are excluded from the areas as are dogs where the bait is used and we humans have a much higher tolerance anyway.
1080 is highly biodegradable and breaks down to non harmful components very fast in the ecosystem.

The dye used also discourages birds.

[Katman]

http://1080science.co.nz/1080-chemistry/

[Katman]

And I found it interesting that Trevor Mallard reiterated the fact that it is a criminal offence to kill the species of birds that were dumped at Parliament yesterday.

Does he really think 1080 has never killed a native bird?

[FJRider]

There's research being done on the idea of eradication via sterilisation.

And we should be encouraging a lot more effort into researching that sort of alternative.

The (THEN) Minister of Conservation for the previous Government already floated that principal ...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/...st-free-future

[Woodman]

And I found it interesting that Trevor Mallard reiterated the fact that it is a criminal offence to kill the species of birds that were dumped at Parliament yesterday.

Does he really think 1080 has never killed a native bird?

Of course 1080 has killed native birds but a lot lot less than the predators do and then once the predators have gone then they cannot kill the birds because they are dead. Doc Don't deny the collateral damage. The kea lady in kahurangi np knows that some keas have died due to 1080 but she supports 1080 because the kea population has increased hugely and the predator population has almost gone.

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[Paul in NZ]

Its good to have a debate about these things but all the evidence that I have personally seen has indicated that in this case DOC are correct and the protesters are wrong. Indeed some of them are more than wrong but rather are being deliberately misleading (lying) to achieve their aims... And then they accuse DOC of lying?? Um...

First up - I freely admit to bias. I have several long term friends who work for DOC. Its interesting that these people joined DOC in the 70's because of their staunch conservation views and have worked tirelessly to nurture and preserve the wild places in NZ and it inhabitants.

Before this gets rowdy and we get all what about the 1000s of birds killed in the bush thats eerily silent after a 1080 drop let me just say that this debate is a smoke screen and its not what people think it is AND that I have spend hours in the bush and where 1080 IS used it works. There are close to a quarter of a million water samples taken and never once has it reached anything like dangerous levels. There is an issue with Keas taking the baits but there is not ONE example of a kiwi being poisoned by 1080. All those pictures of dead kiwis lined up? They were killed by dogs, cats, cars etc and kept in a freezer for study. The dead kiwi in stewart island? it was a dead kiwi - they dont live forever and there was NO 1080 in it...

Yes - errors were made in the 60's using planes but now using choppers and gps and changed baits mistakes are very rare. Most domestic animal deaths are not because DOC dropped a load of baits on a farm but because a farmer allowed his stock onto DOC land when they were warned repeatedly about the drop and seem to think they have a god given right to let semi feral stock loose in the DOC estate...

The BIGGEST problem with 1080 is that it kills mammals. Thats why NZ is the main user, we dont have native mammals. However there is a segment of society that does not really care much about birds but does care about the bush being full of deer, pigs, goats and possums. In some cases they dont really give much of a shit about native trees either but would rather a parkland of exotics. Look at the signs the protesters carry - Stop poisoning our food basket- thats pretty much it... They are pissed they cant go shoot a pig... There have been cases where DOC removes the population so people re release deer in an area. Despite this DOC use a deer repellant in the recreational hunting zones.

DOC see these animals as rats with hooves and while they dont target them directly a dead deer is a good deer.

1080 kills dogs? Well yes it will... BUT slug bait you can buy from the garden centre kills many many more dogs than 1080 and most of them die from hand sown non 1080 baits in areas with signs warning people to control their dogs...

As for the old follow the money crap - the only people getting rich are the graf brothers. They get funding from people like the matamata deer stalkers to make the videos and get elected to council .... One of the graf brothers is a convicted bank robber and while they claim they are not hunters but merely photographers that's not strictly true - search out their early life etc. The photographs they take are of dead deer and of course they are all killed by 1080 with zero toxicology reports. hmmm

I've been out to dinner with DOC folks only to have them leave to attend to a Police call out as some nut jobs threatened to kill an employees family.... Usually its a loony that wants to live off the land... Not their land mind you - rather DOC's

Trapping - it works in small managed plantations close to civilization. I have some local experience protecting a local bush remnant. There is 4wd access and we have cut mountain bike and walking tracks and the traps are along these trails. No point in even trying to get into th gullies unless the farmers let his stock in there (again) illegally... It works to a point IF the trapper is a conservationist but there is damage done cutting tracks to the trap line (usually a few 100m apart) but it does NOT work if the trapper is commercial as he quickly becomes a farmer. It wont work in the real back blocks as too much land is really hard to get to. I spent 2 weeks in the wilkinson a while back - 1 week with a possum trapper and he only touched the easy country and it was a 3 day walk in (I flew). HOWEVER DOC are spending $$ getting companies to develop next generation traps right now (recent article in wilderness magazine is a good one)

https://www.wildernessmag.co.nz/closing-zip-possums/

Having said that - wilderness has always favored 1080


https://www.wildernessmag.co.nz/4574-2/

[Katman]

It's interesting to note too, how many bleeding hearts (and I'm not using that phrase in a derogatory manner, but rather to fully illustrate the paradox) there are who want to save our native birds but who don't seem to care in the slightest about the manner in which a predator dies.

6 - 18 hours of excruciating agony doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

[jasonu]

Would you be in favor of allowing for high capacity Magazines for Varmint calibres (.22 and under) as a means of encouraging individual NZers to help with the solution?

17HMR. Great varmit rifles.

[husaberg]

It's interesting to note too, how many bleeding hearts (and I'm not using that phrase in a derogatory manner, but rather to illustrate the paradox) there are who want to save our native birds but who don't seem to care in the slightest about the manner in which a predator dies.

6 - 18 hours of excruciating agony doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

Wrong again thats now how 1080 works at all, no pain is felt after the animal losses consciousness.
But i note it was you you suggested trapping, how much pain is felt by the 18 hours spent with their leg caught in a trap before it is beaten to death with a hammer steel rod.
Or by internal bleeding or suffication from other poisons.

[Katman]

Wrong again thats now how 1080 works at all, no pain is felt after the animal losses consciousness.

How about you try some and get back to us.

[husaberg]

How about you try some and get back to us.

Plenty of peolple have 1080 before its not deadly in small doses a human of 90 KG would have to eat 45 5gm baits to obtain a lethal dose
The Regional council senior staff used to eat one at every meeting as a demostration, its a good way of shutting up idiots like you.
I see you have not actually answered anything i have posted.
It speaks volumes for your lack of knowledge on the subject, Thats you in a nutshell really, big on opinion but hugely lacking in any knowledge about the subject.