The 1080 debate

[Katman]

a human of 90 KG would have to eat 45 5gm baits to obtain a lethal dose

I'll shout you them.

[Paul in NZ]

It's interesting to note too, how many bleeding hearts (and I'm not using that phrase in a derogatory manner, but rather to fully illustrate the paradox) there are who want to save our native birds but who don't seem to care in the slightest about the manner in which a predator dies.

6 - 18 hours of excruciating agony doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

11080 kills its victims by entering the Krebs cycle. The Krebs Cycle (also known as the TCA cycle or Citric Acid cycle) is a very complex cycle that is the main metabolic pathway which uses glucose, amino acids and fatty acids from the break down of food molecules (carbohydrates, proteins and fats either eaten or stored within the body).

The poison works by inhibiting the function of one critical enzyme in the Krebs cycle, therefore blocking the cycle.

With this enzyme inhibited (therefore bringing down the whole cycle) the energy production falls as the body’s cells are unable to use the glucose, amino acids and fatty acids begin to accumulate in the body’s cells. Both the accumulated food molecules and little to no energy
production leads to the muscles and vital organs drastically malfunctioning resulting in the animals death.

Although 1080 is extremely toxic, its effects aren’t as immediate as some others (cyanide for instance). Depending on the strength of the dose, symptoms can be seen up to 1 1/2 hours, this is also dependent on the species which intakes the bait.

Sufficient inhibition of energy production of cells in this way results in vital functions of the body to stop. Herbivores usually die of heart failure, whereas carnivores are more likely to die of respiratory failure.

A report commissioned in 2009 by the National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee (NAWAC) rated the humaneness of death by 1080 poisoning for possums as grade 6, with grade 1 being the most humane and 8, the least humane. This score takes into consideration the overall impact and its duration of a range of welfare compromises.

So yes its far from ideal but there are not a lot of suitable replacement alternatives to suit NZ. If we are having this debate we need to discuss the reason why we use 1080 so queue the battle for the birds. Its perfectly valid to just say its too cruel to kill animals in this fashion and walk away as it would save a lot of cash. But we should also walk away from Kiwi breeding and blue ducks and everything else and let the rats have the forest. That of course isn't going to be much fun for the birds but they are birds right - not furry critters...

Its also worth noting that your average domestic rat baits are also pretty awful stuff for rats and mice and the old trapping argument does not always kill cleanly. I went pig hunting once with some mates - all rabid anti 1080 folks and one reason was the pain and suffering... They lost one gut shot pig and stuck another one after the dogs had it bailed up for a bit... The pig wasn't exactly squealing with delight if you get my drift. As a kid we hunted possums for bounty and yeah again it was a grisly old end for mr possum... I also went on holiday with a mates uncle who was one of the last rabbiters... Had a pack of always hungry shelter dogs and big old stick... The little dogs would scare up the bunnies and the big lurcher types would run the ridges and dive on them once they started to run. Dogs loved it - rabbits not so much

Pest controls a bloody awful business - its no fun for anyone and NO ONE wants to be doing it... BUT is it worth the effort? Bloody oath it is...

[TheDemonLord]

Just 2 videos:





I get the large amount of territory is a problem and the remoteness and isolation, what solution would we come up with if 1080 wasn't an option?

[FJRider]

Plenty of peolple have 1080 before its not deadly in small doses a human of 90 KG would have to eat 45 5gm baits to obtain a lethal dose

A few years back in Central Otago ... One guy loading 1080 poisoned carrots into a top-dressing aircraft ... decided to top himself by eating as much "product" as he could. All he got was a stomach ache ... and spewed most of it up.

He was back at work a few days later ... but still peeing green ...

[husaberg]

I'll shout you them.

You would not be legally allowed to obtain them.
The police assess the poisons licience based on being good character a rational and sound mind, you would clearly not pass the test.

[Paul in NZ]

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-z...ts.html???????

Trapping and hunting apparently...

His arguments have so many holes in them its laughable - we don't have the right to declare animals as pests? yeah we do actually.. We do it everytime my wife finds a mouse in the house.

Look for the underlaying message - he wants to hunt deer and pigs which isn't humane in any way - this is fucking nuts. and NONE of those birds were killed by 1080 and most of the animals were... that's the whole point surely?

[Woodman]

I have as yet to meet an anti 1080 campaigner that isn't a hunter.

[Paul in NZ]

I have as yet to meet an anti 1080 campaigner that isn't a hunter.

Yup.........

[husaberg]

A few years back in Central Otago ... One guy loading 1080 poisoned carrots into a top-dressing aircraft ... decided to top himself by eating as much "product" as he could. All he got was a stomach ache ... and spewed most of it up.

He was back at work a few days later ... but still peeing green ...

One guy succeeded about 40 years ago as a suicide, he ate a whole jam jar full of it, its the only known human death from 1080.
An amazing record when you consider how many have died from accidental cyanide poisoning.
The threshold we have for water contamination means a cup of tea contains 1 1/2 times the absolute limit water 1080 water levels.

[Katman]

I have as yet to meet an anti 1080 campaigner that isn't a hunter.

Well I don't know whether I qualify as an anti 1080 campaigner in your eyes, but I can tell you I'm certainly no hunter.

[Swoop]

Simple the toxin is most effective on mammals. NZ has only two native mammal species living in the wild Native bats and Seals.
The bat areas are excluded as are the Seal areas (ie the ocean.)
Humans are excluded from the areas as are dogs where the bait is used and we humans have a much higher tolerance anyway.
1080 is highly biodegradable and breaks down to non harmful components very fast in the ecosystem.

The dye used also discourages birds.

PaulinNZ's insights are also interesting.

[husaberg]

PaulinNZ's insights are also interesting.

There is plenty of scientific peer reviewed information available its just not on the conspiracy sites that Katspama visits.

[Paul in NZ]

There is plenty of scientific peer reviewed information available its just not on the conspiracy sites that Katspama visits.

Yes there is...

There are many conservation organisations and they all support 1080 and they are all (apparently) lying and criminals and making money from 1080. I don't know of anyone making serious money from 1080 - the maker is a not for profit. Yet all these organisations have a track record IN conservation so I just don't get that they are all deliberately lying - its highly unlikely.

As for DOC - they have made shit loads of people redundant - often with a great deal of bitterness but shock... No ex DOC exposes' It just makes no sense....

I think this will be my last contribution here on 1080. I just don't believe the opposition...

[FJRider]

Would you be in favor of allowing for high capacity Magazines for Varmint calibres (.22 and under) as a means of encouraging individual NZers to help with the solution?

With the effort needed to get a firearms license ... few not already licensed would bother. And with a .22 or smaller ... you'd need to be standing on it's foot to hit (KILL) it.

The idea of a few (hundred ???) people wandering around national parks ... blasting away at anything that moves (in the dark) is laughable ... if not scary.

As you'd only see possums in enough numbers at night to make the shoot worthwhile ... and you'd need pretty clear bush to cover any amount of territory to make it practical.

On the majority West Coast of the south island ... to get further than a few meters from the roads is a struggle. Those that doubt me should read the books at watch the tv programs about the early explorers (or go and see for yourselves). Even with local Maori guides they struggled.

Even DOC have been looking for/at better (and humane/cost effective) methods ... but they admit it's a long term goal. NOT likely to be implemented any time soon.

Choices of action:

1. Continue with the 1080 program and accept some losses of the non target species.

2. Do nothing and wait 20 years for a better method to be implemented .

The Image attached is of Otira. Taken last Saturday. Could this be regarded as an "accessible" area (by foot) ... or aircraft accessed area only ???

Note ... this photo is of a populated area within/near a farming area on the valley floor.

[frogfeaturesFZR]

And if they limited their aerial drops to areas that truly are inaccessible, it would at least be a start.

For areas that are in fact accessible, trapping (and the associated business ventures that can arise from it) should be enthusiastically encouraged.

Agreed. However when an area stops producing economic numbers of possums, it stops getting trapped.
DOC used to use bradoforicum (?) which seemed to work well, I guess 1080 was cheaper.
I remember, as a kid, the local councils paying a ‘bounty’ on possy and rabbit tails. Up here it
was 3 22 rounds, or 1 12g shell.