Lowering speed limits to 80 (from 100) and 30/40 (from 50)... A research paper.

[Hoonicorn]

Julie-ann Genter said there were a lot of "easy wins" with NZ roads, like more wire fencing on high-risk roads, and dropping speed limits.

The report seems to ramble on a lot, but the main cause of accidents is people relying on their reaction/response time rather than fully concentrating on what they - and other road users - are doing. That means, no planning ahead, no focusing up the road for hazards, no assessing risks before doing manoeuvres - preferring instead to rely on their "skill" as a driver to swerve or brake if something goes pear-shaped.

The underlying point being, lowering speeds doesn't make people better drivers, it just gives them a little bit more reaction time. Really the issue is driver skill, or the lack thereof. It's too easy to get a licence and hardly anyone has done any advanced or defensive driver training.

If lowering the speed causes less accidents, maybe they aren't going far enough, maybe speed limits should be 60 on highways and 20 on town streets.

[Berries]

If lowering the speed causes less accidents, maybe they aren't going far enough, maybe speed limits should be 60 on highways and 20 on town streets.

People will still die at those speeds. It is a fact of life when traveling above walking pace. Yes, less people will die but some still will. At some point there has to be an acceptable level of death on the road where we say yes, we would rather there were none but this is the price that has to be paid for us to be mobile. Does seem a bit daft to have a vision that you know is impossible to achieve.

If Safer Journeys continues in its present form then there will have to be a wholesale reduction in the open road speed limit if they want to make a dent in the number of road deaths. Concentrating on the worst ten percent of roads won't achieve enough. Problem is this will not affect the drugged up piss head with no seatbelt doing 40km/h over the limit, or the dude who falls asleep and misses the bend, or the woman distracted by the fighting kids on the back seat. Then what?

I see in Europe all new cars are soon going to require in vehicle equipment that will force compliance with whatever the GPS says the speed limit is. That will come here, but we'll all be off the bikes by the time that hits NZ. Seriously, if they had the balls and really wanted to make an impact on road safety they would ban motorbikes.

Anyway, some of you may find this book on Book Depository an interesting read - Safe System or Stalinist System

[jasonu]

so you seem to say that the training I've done isn't as good as what your providing simply because it didn't come with some peice of paper ?
your in the wrong profession, I suggest you join the osh brigade they'd love you, my qualification is 40yrs of fairly extreme motor cycling without crashing into anyone, ie not causing any harm to another person, ain't that the best "certificate"

The old 'I've never had an accident' defense.

[rastuscat]

so you seem to say that the training I've done isn't as good as what your providing simply because it didn't come with some peice of paper ?
your in the wrong profession, I suggest you join the osh brigade they'd love you, my qualification is 40yrs of fairly extreme motor cycling without crashing into anyone, ie not causing any harm to another person, ain't that the best "certificate"

Not everyone is as shit hot as you. Most people haven't done training. Certainly most car drivers last looked at a road code when they got their licences.

I'll stand by what I said. People think driver education is a great idea.................for other people.

[Jeff Sichoe]

I bet this won't be an issue within 10 years. By 2030 we'll be riding electric bikes with geo-fencing limiting the top speed to whatever the appropriate speed limit is for that area.

Petrol powered bikes will not be feasible for the majority of us, with the tax on fuel making even a quick 200km blat cost $200+

Vote Sichoe 2020 i'll sort it out

[Autech]

Not everyone is as shit hot as you. Most people haven't done training. Certainly most car drivers last looked at a road code when they got their licences.

I'll stand by what I said. People think driver education is a great idea.................for other people.

I looked into a skid pan event the other day as I would like to get myself and wife along for one. I had a very sideways incident in our new car recently in the wet which I saved, but I'd rather learn how to do that in a more controlled area, thankfully I had some years as a bit of a hoon so it wasn't my first rodeo.
So anyways looked into it and it was 300 per person for only 3 hours training, and I am guessing not all that is on the pan learning how to do mad skids.

Why I'd love to say I could afford it, we just can't right now. We get taxed to the hilt so ACC should be putting their money into skid pan training just as they do for bike training, might actually save a few lives. Either that or it should be included in the driver licensing testing similar to the handling skills of the learners, drivers have to do X amount from certified trainers to pass the next stage. Our licensing is too focused on indicating for 3 seconds rather than your actual ability of driving a car. Pretty sure Finland has skid pan training as part of there licensing system.

[Temporary-Kiwi]

we have a large free skid pan training set up in nz -
a vast network of gravel roads, it's where I learned to drive
I've found it invaluable to keep machine handling skills up to par, when I was younger there were also many flat beaches that could be accessed on a bike, but they are getting harder to access due the greenie element saying it wrecks them, it's a lot softer crapping off on sand than gravel, as i get older i find i need more training to keep the skills up, another thing ive noticed when i didnt have a m/c for a year or two, is if you only go slow for awhile , your reactive responses dull, the quicker acelleration and speed potential of m/c's really helps keep them sharp
I suspect any training is helpful if it gets you out of the rut
your brain loves to get into

[pritch]

We get taxed to the hilt so ACC should be putting their money into skid pan training just as they do for bike training, might actually save a few lives. Either that or it should be included in the driver licensing testing similar to the handling skills of the learners, drivers have to do X amount from certified trainers to pass the next stage. Our licensing is too focused on indicating for 3 seconds rather than your actual ability of driving a car. Pretty sure Finland has skid pan training as part of there licensing system.

Decades ago the consensus among my friends was that if you hadn't been on a skid pan or a track you were not really a driver. Most had competed in various forms of motorsport so were biased. I still believe that.

There is a shortage of skid pans and the only track related driver courses that I'm aware of are those that were organised by BMW and Holden. These can be quite expensive if you have to add travel and accomodation.

Most of the objections to any practical driver training will come from the National Party. Imagine the uproar if farmer's kids had to travel to town for driver training. It ain't gonna to happen.

[Autech]

we have a large free skid pan training set up in nz -
a vast network of gravel roads, it's where I learned to drive
I've found it invaluable to keep machine handling skills up to par, when I was younger there were also many flat beaches that could be accessed on a bike, but they are getting harder to access due the greenie element saying it wrecks them, it's a lot softer crapping off on sand than gravel, as i get older i find i need more training to keep the skills up, another thing ive noticed when i didnt have a m/c for a year or two, is if you only go slow for awhile , your reactive responses dull, the quicker acelleration and speed potential of m/c's really helps keep them sharp
I suspect any training is helpful if it gets you out of the rut
your brain loves to get into

My driver training was night time hill climbs with mates in our boy racer cars up a few roads in the sticks that no one went up at night, was some hairy moments but the only people we could have hurt was ourselves. Was great fun and awesome memories.

Decades ago the consensus among my friends was that if you hadn't been on a skid pan or a track you were not really a driver. Most had competed in various forms of motorsport so were biased. I still believe that.

I've done the bike racing/riding which I believe gives you an ability that car drivers don't seem to have, case and point is when I got on some hire karts in Aus against some aussie sim racing mates that race karts and beat them at their own game , the look on their faces... As I strapped into it this thought went through my head "I can't fall off this", from then on it was pedal to the floor!

Any bikers that go on Top Gear always end up on the top of the board in the reasonably fast car, so there definitely is something to be said about the bikers make better drivers argument, knowing corner lines etc seems to be pretty good for most riders.

Racing sims are getting better and better too as a way of sharpening up the reflexes, so not a bad way to get into "motorsport" for those that can't afford to get out on the track IRL. My set up cost me under a grand and keeps me happy for a weekly race or two.

[Autech]

Some more research brought out this:

https://www.hamptondowns.com/attractions/wet-skid-pan/

Only $59 for your own car, no tutor but better than nothing!

[roogazza]

As a 16- 17 yr old any wet day in the Hutt Valley, all roads were a skid pan !!! Thats how we grew up !

[rastuscat]

While I understand the value in skid pan training, in reality, what people need to learn is how to apply a decent following distance, how to indicate when they are supposed to, how not to use their phone while driving,. how top merge properly, how to head check when changing lanes.

All the basic stuff. Nobody is going to pay $300 to learn basic stuff, but it's the basics done well that make for a good road user.

Each day we see people who get the basics wrong.

Example. Riding a troll bike on Blenheim Road, in Lane 1. In Lane 2 there's a blue XR6 Falcon following a red Suzuki Swift about 6 metres behind, at 60 kmh.

The correct following distance is 24 metres, but the 2 second rule would put the XR6 33 metres back.

On go the nee nars, pulls XR6 over. Following is the standard dialogue.

Rastuscat "Gidday bloke, how far back should you be at 60 kmh"

Small Penis Man "2 second rule"

So here's SPM telling me he was following the 2 second rule, when he was at 6 metres, and the 2 second rule would be 33 metres.


It's the basics that aren't even done properly. But if SPM was to get driver training, he'd want to learn about cornering lines, skid control, emergency braking and crash avoidance.

That's the problem. Few people will pay for basic skills they don't have.

[Autech]

While I understand the value in skid pan training, in reality, what people need to learn is how to apply a decent following distance, how to indicate when they are supposed to, how not to use their phone while driving,. how top merge properly, how to head check when changing lanes.

All the basic stuff. Nobody is going to pay $300 to learn basic stuff, but it's the basics done well that make for a good road user.

Each day we see people who get the basics wrong.

Example. Riding a troll bike on Blenheim Road, in Lane 1. In Lane 2 there's a blue XR6 Falcon following a red Suzuki Swift about 6 metres behind, at 60 kmh.

The correct following distance is 24 metres, but the 2 second rule would put the XR6 33 metres back.

On go the nee nars, pulls XR6 over. Following is the standard dialogue.

Rastuscat "Gidday bloke, how far back should you be at 60 kmh"

Small Penis Man "2 second rule"

So here's SPM telling me he was following the 2 second rule, when he was at 6 metres, and the 2 second rule would be 33 metres.


It's the basics that aren't even done properly. But if SPM was to get driver training, he'd want to learn about cornering lines, skid control, emergency braking and crash avoidance.

That's the problem. Few people will pay for basic skills they don't have.

That's the easy stuff that any road user with half a brain knows how to do. New flash though, they don't. I'm a sad fuck that counts out the 2 sec rule when following someone, counts my indicating time and does head checks. It's not rocket science.

From my keyboard we need to get certain road users off the road, like the many SPM that I see in their utes everyday of the week driving rural Waikato roads. They're the ones overtaking at the wrong time and causing the fatal crashes. Every single close call I've had/seen since moving back this way was caused by a ute overtaking somewhere dumb.

Anyone know the stats on how many deaths are caused by poor decisions when overtaking? I'm guessing a lot of them are. Gummant doesn't want us to know that though so they say speed is the cause, not the dumb fuck overtaking at the wrong time and taking out the family of 3 heading the other way.

[Swoop]

Sadly, common sense has left the building.
We "train" citizens to pass the driving test but NOT driving skills.

The severity of "lack of driver ability" on NZ roads is not insurmountable, IF a government has the balls to draw a line in the sand on this issue. Unfortunately we are continually assaulted by the propaganda ministry response, unstead of coming out and stating "KIWI DRIVERS ARE INEPT".

Julie-ann Genter said there were a lot of "easy wins" with NZ roads, like more wire fencing on high-risk roads, and dropping speed limits.

She is a fucking canadian retard with no idea apart from bad ideas. Send the cunt home.

Decades ago the consensus among my friends was that if you hadn't been on a skid pan or a track you were not really a driver.

Sadly we have to factor in the "net-nanny" of vehicle stability control assistance... which takes over when IT feels right.
Try using power to get out of a situation & getting "computer says NO" in response. I'm still looking at ways to deactivate it on my car.

[pritch]

While I understand the value in skid pan training, in reality, what people need to learn is how to apply a decent following distance, how to indicate when they are supposed to, how not to use their phone while driving,. how top merge properly, how to head check when changing lanes.

Sorry, you could do all that stuff and still not really be a driver at all. Part of the problem is that people get a licence and think they're good drivers. They're not, they are absolute beginners. They know nothing of road craft, and likely have never even heard of it. Some may do a defensive driving course, most do nothing further whatsoever.

Motorcycle riding is in itself a defensive driving course, you learn quickly or you don't stick around.

At the risk of repeating myself, only one driver at work ever asked me how she could go about learning car control. She had a doctorate so she was possibly a bit brighter than some. I directed her to the Holden and BMW driver training pages on the web. Her manager agreed to pay for her to attend the Holden course but then said she could have a laptop or do the drivers course but not both - so she took the laptop.