Grace Millane.

[husaberg]

And it shouldn't come as any surprise to you Drew that I don't see you as any sort of shining beacon of common sense.

Your vast experience in parenthood consists of what Steve?
The same as your medical training? to which you previously claim to know more than medical professionals?
The same as your legal skills? to which you claim to have more knowledge of the law than a judge?
But now, you are expanding into parenthood and sex education of children, when you have no children nor educational training
I would suggest you stick to engines, but you couldn't even figure out the Geet engine was a fake that's hardy your forte either, maybe you should start a blog about narcissism.
So from now on how about you stick to the topic of the tread rather than just use it for a trolling platform.

[TheDemonLord]

Nope, just a simple moral obligation.


Probably not something you'd be aware of in it's basic form. Helping those that need and WANT help ...

Not about control, simply just helping. And usually, not even life threatening to the helper.

You've merely restated that it's an obligation - with nothing to support it other than your say so. It may be YOUR moral obligation but it does not mean it is MY moral obligation - unless you can provide proof of a universal set of morals (and good luck with that...)

I'm not saying it's wrong to help people in need, nor am I saying I would refuse to help someone in need, nor am I saying that helping someone in need must not come at any risk to myself. In fact, I clearly stated that not only have I risked my safety to help people in need, but that it is also likely I would do so again.

What I am saying is that I do so of my own free will, as opposed to being compelled to do so by an external force, entity, organization or 3rd party.

Where this becomes relevant is that because I don't think people have an obligation for my safety, I take precautions to account for other people's stupidity and/or malice.

Perhaps the linchpin in this whole discussion is how many people here ride without any form of protection? Afterall, we've all passed our BST or similar, we are all competent enough to ride without dropping a bike in normal conditions right? So why spend $$$ on expensive safety gear, Other motorists should just look out for Bikes, right?

And whilst we may all agree that other Drivers OUGHT to look out for Motorcycles, we spend lots on safety gear because we know that we can't control other people and so we stack the deck as much as possible in our favor, not only with gear, but situational awareness, positioning etc.

Should someone die, completely, 100% in the legal right and the other party 100% at fault, if they weren't wearing gear, didn't demonstrate situational awareness or good road craft, we would say that these things were a causal factor (over which they had 100% control) in their demise and maybe had they been properly accounted for, the person may still be alive.

So too it is with Grace.

As an addendum - for those leaping, with shrieks of 'Victim Blaming' - consider this: it's the same standard I hold for myself and for others, regardless of Gender - isn't that true equality?

[BMWST?]

You've merely restated that it's an obligation - with nothing to support it other than your say so. It may be YOUR moral obligation but it does not mean it is MY moral obligation - unless you can provide proof of a universal set of morals (and good luck with that...)

I'm not saying it's wrong to help people in need, nor am I saying I would refuse to help someone in need, nor am I saying that helping someone in need must not come at any risk to myself. In fact, I clearly stated that not only have I risked my safety to help people in need, but that it is also likely I would do so again.

What I am saying is that I do so of my own free will, as opposed to being compelled to do so by an external force, entity, organization or 3rd party.

Where this becomes relevant is that because I don't think people have an obligation for my safety, I take precautions to account for other people's stupidity and/or malice.

Perhaps the linchpin in this whole discussion is how many people here ride without any form of protection? Afterall, we've all passed our BST or similar, we are all competent enough to ride without dropping a bike in normal conditions right? So why spend $$$ on expensive safety gear, Other motorists should just look out for Bikes, right?

And whilst we may all agree that other Drivers OUGHT to look out for Motorcycles, we spend lots on safety gear because we know that we can't control other people and so we stack the deck as much as possible in our favor, not only with gear, but situational awareness, positioning etc.

Should someone die, completely, 100% in the legal right and the other party 100% at fault, if they weren't wearing gear, didn't demonstrate situational awareness or good road craft, we would say that these things were a causal factor (over which they had 100% control) in their demise and maybe had they been properly accounted for, the person may still be alive.

So too it is with Grace.

As an addendum - for those leaping, with shrieks of 'Victim Blaming' - consider this: it's the same standard I hold for myself and for others, regardless of Gender - isn't that true equality?

yet with all the care and gear in the world you could still be the victim of someones elses actions.despite all you care,positiong vihi viz,whatever you could wiped by a completley irattional illogical idotic manouvere .Is it your fault,no,did you take reasonable precations yes...this is ibeleive the equivlent of this argument.She was not to know she had hooked up with a nut job

[MaxPenguin]

yet with all the care and gear in the world you could still be the victim of someones elses actions.despite all you care,positiong vihi viz,whatever you could wiped by a completley irattional illogical idotic manouvere .Is it your fault,no,did you take reasonable precations yes...this is ibeleive the equivlent of this argument.She was not to know she had hooked up with a nut job

Riding a motorcycle is not taking the best precautions whether you have good gear or not.

Grace should not have died, many factors contributed to her death.

[FJRider]

You've merely restated that it's an obligation - with nothing to support it other than your say so. It may be YOUR moral obligation but it does not mean it is MY moral obligation - unless you can provide proof of a universal set of morals (and good luck with that...)

I'm not saying it's wrong to help people in need, nor am I saying I would refuse to help someone in need, nor am I saying that helping someone in need must not come at any risk to myself. In fact, I clearly stated that not only have I risked my safety to help people in need, but that it is also likely I would do so again.

What I am saying is that I do so of my own free will, as opposed to being compelled to do so by an external force, entity, organization or 3rd party.

Where this becomes relevant is that because I don't think people have an obligation for my safety, I take precautions to account for other people's stupidity and/or malice.

Perhaps the linchpin in this whole discussion is how many people here ride without any form of protection? Afterall, we've all passed our BST or similar, we are all competent enough to ride without dropping a bike in normal conditions right? So why spend $$$ on expensive safety gear, Other motorists should just look out for Bikes, right?

And whilst we may all agree that other Drivers OUGHT to look out for Motorcycles, we spend lots on safety gear because we know that we can't control other people and so we stack the deck as much as possible in our favor, not only with gear, but situational awareness, positioning etc.

Should someone die, completely, 100% in the legal right and the other party 100% at fault, if they weren't wearing gear, didn't demonstrate situational awareness or good road craft, we would say that these things were a causal factor (over which they had 100% control) in their demise and maybe had they been properly accounted for, the person may still be alive.

So too it is with Grace.

As an addendum - for those leaping, with shrieks of 'Victim Blaming' - consider this: it's the same standard I hold for myself and for others, regardless of Gender - isn't that true equality?

The simple moral obligation to help can be in one of two ways ... give help where you are or GET help. No rule of law requires you to put your life at risk of death. Getting help is doing something. And better than doing nothing. Either choice is yours to make ...at the time.

As for safety gear, I've fallen off my bike in my own driveway. I've also fallen off in roadworks gravel on the way to the local Dairy for milk. Both with no other vehicle involved. If I was wearing shorts, t-shirt and jandals (as I have seen some do) I would have lost a bit of skin. The only damage was to my pride. I can live (excuse the pun) with that.

Saving lives does not always about putting YOUR life in danger ... knowing how to help is the key. What caused the event (blame is for others to figure out and apportion) is totally irrelevant and at the time not in the least bit important. I don't know why people are so quick to claim innocence ... it's always somebody else's fault. I've pulled a (still running)motorcycle off a guy after he crashed (single vehicle accident) and found he had two broken arms and the exhaust pipe was on his bare leg. A lot of blood leaking to ... but first things first. The only thing I risked was a hernia.

The term "victim" is over used ... everybody nowadays is somehow "The victim" ...

Doing the right thing at the right time can save a life. I've done it in full riding gear and still with my helmet on ... with my bike leaning against a power pole ... And one guy much happier (but still in pain).

You have standards ... when did that happen ..

[FJRider]

Riding a motorcycle is not taking the best precautions whether you have good gear or not.

Grace should not have died, many factors contributed to her death.

According to the Jury ... one "factor" caused her death. He was found guilty. Next you'll be telling us it was suicide ...

[MaxPenguin]

Your vast experience in parenthood consists of what Steve?
The same as your medical training? to which you previously claim to know more than medical professionals?
The same as your legal skills? to which you claim to have more knowledge of the law than a judge?
But now, you are expanding into parenthood and sex education of children, when you have no children nor educational training
I would suggest you stick to engines, but you couldn't even figure out the Geet engine was a fake that's hardy your forte either, maybe you should start a blog about narcissism.
So from now on how about you stick to the topic of the tread rather than just use it for a trolling platform.

Awkward............

[MaxPenguin]

According to the Jury ... one "factor" caused her death. He was found guilty. Next you'll be telling us it was suicide ...

Get where your coming from but nah.

[FJRider]

Get where your coming from but nah.

The "Factors" you're thinking of wouldn't have helped her ... but they didn't contribute to her death.

She went into the room alone with him. She didn't walk out.

[MaxPenguin]

The "Factors" you're thinking of wouldn't have helped her ... but they didn't contribute to her death.

She went into the room alone with him. She didn't walk out.

Agreed.......

[tigertim20]

Then go and sit in the corner with Drew.

ORLY?

explain the difference?

inviting a stranger to take you into a private room, in a private residence, where both participants disrobe, and engage in behavior that poses a variety of risks (possibly for transmission of STI's, aids, not to mention the revocation of consent possibly being ignored, or having invitee subsequently bash or rob you)

VS

choking - which on it's own is not a major. tens of thousands of people go into gyms in this country every day and have strangers choke them during martial arts classes.

Both are the same - the expectation that participation continues on the basis of continued consent, which is freely given, by agreed participation, and instantly revoked by basic agreed behaviors - tapping, choking, struggling.

indeed, it differs no more from sex in the first place - e.g. consent exists only to degrees - agreeing to sex doesnt mean agreeing to anal, our agreeing to general 'roughness' during said otherwise consented fornication.

Is this corner the place where logical thinking happens?

It must be. Clearly Katman can only see as far as his own opinions.

[BMWST?]

Riding a motorcycle is not taking the best precautions whether you have good gear or not.

Grace should not have died, many factors contributed to her death.

thats my point, just as we know riding a motorcycle is risky yet we still do it.

[FJRider]

... just as we know riding a motorcycle is risky yet we still do it.

Probably ... that's why we (well most of us) do it ...

I've known of a few that stopped riding after a serious crash. Maybe they then deemed the risk wasn't worth fun.

[Katman]

explain the difference?

The difference being when someone willingly allows another person to choke them.

A person they only met a few hours earlier.

Your martial arts example is hardly in the same category.

[Katman]

The "Factors" you're thinking of wouldn't have helped her ... but they didn't contribute to her death.

Asking a pissed stranger to choke her certainly 'contributed' to her death.