Grace Millane.

[Katman]

thats my point, just as we know riding a motorcycle is risky yet we still do it.

But we usually take steps to mitigate those risks.

And those of us who ride in a manner that fails to mitigate those risks are making the same sort of bad life choices that Grace Millane made.

[mashman]

Personal responsibility seems to be taking a back seat yet again.

That's the nature of the beast. She could not have prevented what happened, because submissives abdicate responsibility (outwith safe words, tricky in this case) and switch into pleasure mode. Where she had done such before, why would she think that she was being irresponsible and not just in for another fun evening.

[jasonu]

She could not have prevented what happened, .

Sure she could have. If she didn't ask a more or less internet stranger to strangle her she would likely still be alive today. I'm not saying it was her fault but some of her questionable decisions definitely contributed to her death.

[mashman]

Sure she could have. If she didn't ask a more or less internet stranger to strangle her she would likely still be alive today. I'm not saying it was her fault but some of her questionable decisions definitely contributed to her death.

Why is it a questionable decision? Kids, literally, fuck around. This may sound a little crude, but it isn't meant to be, but those who like being rag dolled are generally submissive. They never (safe word etc...) say no, and they always walk away from each and every encounter one way or another. Sometimes they regret it, but hey, it ain't just submissives that have forgettable experiences is it.

Where your experience, irrespective of how you get it, is predominantly positive, then why should you stop it just because society deems such behaviour "weird". Because that's all I've really read so far. "It's weird to me, so she must take some blame.". I see no reason for her to take any blame in anyway whatsoever.

[Katman]

"It's weird to me, so she must take some blame."

Regardless of whether one thinks it's 'weird' or not, my question is "is it sensible to allow a pissed stranger to choke you?"

Not only do I think it's not sensible, I think it's downright fucking stupid (excuse the pun).

[oldrider]

Sure she could have. If she didn't ask a more or less internet stranger to strangle her she would likely still be alive today. I'm not saying it was her fault but some of her questionable decisions definitely contributed to her death.

There are those of us who advocate "If you are not standing on the edge - you are taking up too much room".

Did youthful drive naivety and inexperience simply mask the crumbly edge? - R.I.P. Grace.

[TheDemonLord]

yet with all the care and gear in the world you could still be the victim of someones elses actions.despite all you care,positiong vihi viz,whatever you could wiped by a completley irattional illogical idotic manouvere .Is it your fault,no,did you take reasonable precations yes...this is ibeleive the equivlent of this argument.She was not to know she had hooked up with a nut job

Agree with the first part - it is entirely possible to take all reasonable precautions and still end up dead.

The last part, she was not to know she had hooked up with a sane person either.

[Katman]

Agree with the first part - it is entirely possible to take all reasonable precautions and still end up dead.

And at the risk of repeating myself, is asking a complete stranger to choke you, after only spending a few hours on the piss with them, taking any (let alone 'all') reasonable precautions?

[husaberg]

Asking a pissed stranger to choke her certainly 'contributed' to her death.

Regardless of whether one thinks it's 'weird' or not, my question is "is it sensible to allow a pissed stranger to choke you?"
Not only do I think it's not sensible, I think it's downright fucking stupid (excuse the pun).

And at the risk of repeating myself, is asking a complete stranger to choke you, after only spending a few hours on the piss with them, taking any (let alone 'all') reasonable precautions?

The only problem with that statement is you have zero evidence that she did do this other than the killers testimony and she had enjoyed doing it with others.
None of that is proof that she asked him to choke her. you are making that assumption which is conjecture and considering how much else you have got wrong like claiming it must have been consensual as there was not marks is just palin stupid.
But you keep repeating it as if it was a fact.
Note he had choked women in the past without being asked.

"We'd been talking about, like, how much he loved me and wanted to be with me and he walked over and kissed me.
"And then he tried to lead me over to the bed," she said, adding the accused grabbed his arm.
She told the young man: "We're not having sex."
"Oh why not?" she said the accused replied.
However, after the pair sat on the bed together the accused removed his pants, she said.
'He was trying to kiss me and then he removed his pants."
The young woman then began giving him oral sex.
The accused, she told the court, later climbed onto the bed.
"He just sat down on my face," she said through tears. "I couldn't breathe."
Her forearms were also held down, the court heard.
"I couldn't move my arms, I couldn't breathe, so I started kicking - trying to indicate I couldn't breathe," she said.
"I couldn't move my arms because he had too much weight on them."
She attempted to struggle free with "all my might".
"I couldn't breathe … I was terrified.
"He just sat there, he didn't move at all."
The then-university student told the court she managed to "turn my head slightly to the left so I could get a slither of breath".
She then feigned unconsciousness.
"'Cause then maybe he'd realise something was wrong.
"He still didn't get off.
"There were so many thoughts running through my mind ... This can't be the way I die ... I started thinking about my family and my friends. They can't read about this."

He had a history of not telling the truth

After he was contacted by police, the killer wove an elaborate web of lies, at first claiming he and Grace had parted as friends and had planned to meet the next day.
When trapped by CCTV footage showing him buying the suitcase, however, the killer changed his story, claiming Grace had told him she had learned BDSM sex games with a former boyfriend and had asked him to choke her during intercourse.
The jury also heard of the killer's history exaggerated stories and lies – such as having cancer and being a professional athlete.
He was a hot-shot manager earning $150,000 a year. He had a law degree. His cousin was an All Black. His parents were dead. He was adopted by rich people. His mates were mostly cops, He had gang connections.
Crown prosecutor Brian Dickey had told the jury the killer had “eroticised her death.”
The prosecution also described how the man had taken "intimate" pictures of Grace's dead body, viewed porn while she lay dead in the room, and searched terms like "rigor mortis."

Lawyers for the defendant argued the Brit had died during "rough" sex after consensual choking went wrong.
But a trial found Grace's death was intentional and prolonged.
It was found she would have recovered if the pressure on her neck had been released in the five to 10 minutes it had taken her to die.

the killer is a good foot taller and at least 40kg bigger than her. He could have easily over powered her.

[Katman]

And for those who would like to liken it to racing a sidecar around Wanganui's street circuit, it would be far more akin to jumping onto a sidecar, as a passenger, with a complete stranger driving it, after you'd be on the piss with them for a few hours, and going for a few laps of that same circuit.

What level of 'sensible' would that be?

[Drew]

And at the risk of repeating myself, is asking a complete stranger to choke you, after only spending a few hours on the piss with them, taking any (let alone 'all') reasonable precautions?

It probably is, I'm not privy to the conversation they had. Neither are you, so you are victim blaming for fuck knows what reason.

You are also an idiot.

[MarkH]

Not only do I think it's not sensible, I think it's downright fucking stupid (excuse the pun).

Not only do I think that you are not sensible, I think that you are downright fucking stupid!

my question is "is it sensible to allow a pissed stranger to choke you?"

Well, I guess it depends on how likely it would be that they would accidentally kill you. My understanding is that it is very unlikely.
If the risk is that they would deliberately kill you, then the risk probably isn't much higher than if you had sex with a stranger or even just allowed yourself to be alone with a stranger.
I think that Grace Millane was only at any significant risk if she was alone with a homicidal person, unfortunately that turned out to be the case.

I wonder how many woman have done exactly the same thing without any negative consequences?

I seriously doubt that Katman has any idea of what the risk of death is from Grace's behaviour relative to something else like riding a motorcycle on NZ roads. Katman is one of the most wilfully ignorant people around, so I would always assume that he has no fucking clue. Obviously this doesn't stop Katman posting his uninformed opinion like he is some kind of expert, there is very definitely a strong Dunning Krueger effect in force here.

[Katman]

I seriously doubt that Katman has any idea of what the risk of death is from Grace's behaviour relative to something else like riding a motorcycle on NZ roads.

Except I've already covered that.

[mashman]

Regardless of whether one thinks it's 'weird' or not, my question is "is it sensible to allow a pissed stranger to choke you?"

Weird has everything to do with it. If it's normal, then it is sensible given that that experience has shown those encounters to be ok as everyone is supposed to know the rules i.e. it's for pleasure, not "insert perversion of choice". That you do not consider it sensible does not make it not so, especially as it was consensual. A thing is normal is usually also sensible... unless it not being sensible is something that floats your boat to make the point further.

[Katman]

Weird has everything to do with it. If it's normal, then it is sensible given that that experience has shown those encounters to be ok as everyone is supposed to know the rules i.e. it's for pleasure, not "insert perversion of choice". That you do not consider it sensible does not make it not so, especially as it was consensual. A thing is normal is usually also sensible... unless it not being sensible is something that floats your boat to make the point further.

If you think allowing a pissed stranger to choke you is 'sensible', then you're perfectly at liberty to hold that opinion.

Just as I'm at liberty to hold an opposing opinion.

I shouldn't be having to explain that to you, of all people.

(And btw, you're the only one who has used the word 'perversion').