Grace Millane.

[Katman]

Let's face it, Grace Millane made a fucking dumb decision that night.

Deep down, we all think it - but it appears I'm the only one with the balls to say it.

[caspernz]

Let's face it, Grace Millane made a fucking dumb decision that night.

Deep down, we all think it - but it appears I'm the only one with the balls to say it.

Nope, you're victim blaming. But just keep digging

[Katman]

Nope, you're victim blaming. But just keep digging

It's not victim blaming.

It's about examining how to lessen victims.

[caspernz]

It's not victim blaming.

It's about examining how to lessen victims.

What you're failing to grasp is the absence of defensive wounds means nothing in this case. Any inference you draw using that detail is eminently flawed.

Someone shot by a sniper from 1000 yards out has no defensive wounds.

Someone rendered unconscious by way of chloroform and subsequently raped has no defensive wounds.

That's how some of us view your conclusion, it's actually that simple...

[Katman]

That's how some of us view your conclusion, it's actually that simple...

Except for the inconvenient fact that she was clearly into choking during sex and had asked others to do exactly that to her in the past.

That, coupled with the absence of any evidence to suggest she fought against her killer, is a fairly clear indicator that the action was consensual.

[husaberg]

Except for the inconvenient fact that she was clearly into choking during sex and had asked others to do exactly that to her in the past.

That, coupled with the absence of any evidence to suggest she fought against her killer, is a fairly clear indicator that the action was consensual.

Odd that you thing you know more than the jury does. Not really odd for you to claim this, but rather telling that you claim to being as it is a fact you clearly can not know more about the case than they do.

Justice Moore said if the jury believed Millane consented to the accused applying force to her neck - they must acquit the accused on both murder and manslaughter.
"It is a defense if [the accused] honestly believed Miss Millane consented to him putting pressure on her neck … It does not matter if it was mistaken or unreasonable," he explained.
If they believe she did not consent - they must find him guilty of manslaughter

He said the jury had to be 100 per cent sure that the accused had murderous intent when he put his hands on Millane's neck.
"Are you sure that when he applied pressure to Miss Millane's neck … did he intend to cause injury?" he posed.
"If you answer is yes, then you would find [the accused] guilty of murder."

Also as it has been pointed out numerous times the last person the killer tried to asphyxiate also had no external injuries, but she fought back as was physically larger than Grace was.
She was also adamant she gave no consent to being asphyxiated.



So steve, how is it you know more than the judge and the jury do about the case?.................

[sidecar bob]

Let's face it, Grace Millane made a fucking dumb decision that night.

Deep down, we all think it - but it appears I'm the only one with the balls to say it.

Na, it just makes you an idiot that can't accept anyone else's point of view, that believes everyone else agrees with him but just can't admit it.
That's fairly self absorbed.

[PrincessBandit]

I’m sure we all agree that she in no way shape or form deserved what happened to her. The guy seems (from what has been said about him in public arenas) seems likely to be a narcissistic wanker who gets off on power and domination. This poor woman could have met up with any number of other blokes for the same kind encounter and had a great time and still be alive today. The fact that she ended up with him was tragic.
We’ve all done dumbshit things where we’ve put ourselves at risk and, largely, walked away unscathed. She paid the ultimate price for being in a risky situation with the wrong person at the wrong time. Being judgemental does nothing but add to the heart break.

[Katman]

Being judgemental does nothing but add to the heart break.

And on the other hand, examining a tragic incident dispassionately and openly could help prevent further incidents like it.

But we all know KB doesn't do dispassionate examination.

Much better to bury our heads in the sand muttering "oh, the poor, poor thing" instead of recognising the poor, poor decision that she made.

[husaberg]

And on the other hand, examining a tragic incident dispassionately and openly could help prevent further incidents like it.

But we all know KB doesn't do dispassionate examination.

Much better to bury our heads in the sand muttering "oh, the poor, poor thing" instead of recognising the poor, poor decision that she made.

Lets do the dispassionate examination where you point out how it is you can believe with any degree of credibility that you know more then the case then either the Judge or the jury did.

Asking a pissed stranger to choke her certainly 'contributed' to her death.

Except for the inconvenient fact that she was clearly into choking during sex and had asked others to do exactly that to her in the past.

That, coupled with the absence of any evidence to suggest she fought against her killer, is a fairly clear indicator that the action was consensual.

Odd that you thing you know more than the jury does. Not really odd for you to claim this, but rather telling that you claim to being as it is a fact you clearly can not know more about the case than they do.

Justice Moore said if the jury believed Millane consented to the accused applying force to her neck - they must acquit the accused on both murder and manslaughter.
"It is a defense if [the accused] honestly believed Miss Millane consented to him putting pressure on her neck … It does not matter if it was mistaken or unreasonable," he explained.
If they believe she did not consent - they must find him guilty of manslaughter

He said the jury had to be 100 per cent sure that the accused had murderous intent when he put his hands on Millane's neck.
"Are you sure that when he applied pressure to Miss Millane's neck … did he intend to cause injury?" he posed.
"If you answer is yes, then you would find [the accused] guilty of murder."

Also as it has been pointed out numerous times the last person the killer tried to asphyxiate also had no external injuries, but she fought back as was physically larger than Grace was.
She was also adamant she gave no consent to being asphyxiated.



So steve, how is it you know more than the judge and the jury do about the case?.................

[Katman]

When a car full of teenagers driven by a drunk driver wraps itself around a power pole killing everyone inside, do we not as a society try stressing the stupidity of getting into a car driven by a drunk driver?

(Well probably not here on KB. It seems we'd be more likely to sit around hugging each other crying "stop being so mean - people should be allowed to get in a car with whoever they want".)

[husaberg]

blather)

Answer the question or slink off steve.

And on the other hand, examining a tragic incident dispassionately and openly could help prevent further incidents like it.

But we all know KB doesn't do dispassionate examination.

Much better to bury our heads in the sand muttering "oh, the poor, poor thing" instead of recognising the poor, poor decision that she made.

Lets do the dispassionate examination where you point out how it is you can believe with any degree of credibility that you know more then the case then either the Judge or the jury did.

Asking a pissed stranger to choke her certainly 'contributed' to her death.

Except for the inconvenient fact that she was clearly into choking during sex and had asked others to do exactly that to her in the past.

That, coupled with the absence of any evidence to suggest she fought against her killer, is a fairly clear indicator that the action was consensual.

Odd that you thing you know more than the jury does. Not really odd for you to claim this, but rather telling that you claim to being as it is a fact you clearly can not know more about the case than they do.

Justice Moore said if the jury believed Millane consented to the accused applying force to her neck - they must acquit the accused on both murder and manslaughter.
"It is a defense if [the accused] honestly believed Miss Millane consented to him putting pressure on her neck … It does not matter if it was mistaken or unreasonable," he explained.
If they believe she did not consent - they must find him guilty of manslaughter

He said the jury had to be 100 per cent sure that the accused had murderous intent when he put his hands on Millane's neck.
"Are you sure that when he applied pressure to Miss Millane's neck … did he intend to cause injury?" he posed.
"If you answer is yes, then you would find [the accused] guilty of murder."

Also as it has been pointed out numerous times the last person the killer tried to asphyxiate also had no external injuries, but she fought back as was physically larger than Grace was.
She was also adamant she gave no consent to being asphyxiated.



So steve, how is it you know more than the judge and the jury do about the case?.................

[Katman]

Answer the question or slink off steve.

You should copy and paste that post another half a dozen times - just in case there's anyone here who hadn't noticed the previous ones.

[Katman]

What about a young drunk woman wandering the streets late at night in any one of New Zealand's crime ridden cesspits, wearing next to nothing, who gets raped?

Do you parents say to your daughters "don't listen to that meanie Katman - you should be allowed to walk wherever you like, dressed however you like, in any sort of state you like" or do you try to get across to them the stupidity of placing themselves in a situation like that?

[PrincessBandit]

Ideally they should be able to wear what they like. Ideally a man should be able to walk alone wherever he likes without being beaten up and robbed. As far as the culture of blaming women for what they were wearing, how much they were drinking etc is concerned, men (or whatever the gender of the perpetrator is) must be held accountable. Men who prey on vulnerable women - it happens even to those who have tried to take precautions - should practice self control rather than make excuses for their base behaviour.