Grace Millane.

[MaxPenguin]

I wouldn't think that anything that happened to her was a product of her actions.

...........

[Jeff Sichoe]

I wouldn't think that anything that happened to her was a product of her actions.

If someone attempts to mug you all you need to say is 'that's illegal' and they have to stop! It's amazing more people don't know this.

[Katman]

I wouldn't think that anything that happened to her was a product of her actions.

Nice side-stepping of the question.

[Drew]

Nice side-stepping of the question.

Not at all. I would bot have any one knowingly go and hang out with criminals. So I would not suggest it was a safe thing to do.

But that isn't what the poor women this thread is about did.

She hooked up with a guy for a root. He turned out to be a killer, and she got killed. Whether she asked to be choked or not has nothing to do with it, you fucking moron.

Why cant you get this through your skull?

[Katman]

Not at all. I would bot have any one knowingly go and hang out with criminals. So I would not suggest it was a safe thing to do.

Are you trying to do a mashman on us?

Where did I say anything about 'knowingly go and hang out with criminals'?

But at least you're starting to think about the safe/sensible aspect of this case.

Well done you.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm going to add 2 things to this thread:

1: If you go to any BDSM/Fetish/Kink/Alernative/whatever group/site/forum/message board/whatever - I can virtually guarantee you that amongst the top (and oldest) pinned threads or messages or blog posts will be one about evaluating a potential play partner. Said communique will go into great detail with advice on how to vet a potential partner, what things to be wary of, common do's and don'ts etc. There will also typically be a large amount of discussion on this topic in general. Whilst between groups there will be some regional differences, there is most definitely a common set of themes. The actions that Grace took, would not appear in the 'recommended' section in any of them.

2: For all the disagreements we have, Katman has not once said that Grace either deserved what happened to her or that any actions that she carelessly took should mitigate the culpability of the Killer. Instead he has pointed to a number of actions that at best would be considered 'risky' and unfortunately turned out to be the worst. To discuss these actions and to understand the chain of events may help someone else in a similar situation that it would be more prudent to make a different decision. That may end up saving a life, that may just end up in Blue Balls for both parties.

We all take risk, some of us take more risk than others. Some take risks, but with mitigation strategies to try and offset that Risk - For example, a Sky Diver has a primary and a reserve Parachute.

If someone tomorrow fell off their Bike, was a Male, and was wearing the Mk1 Safety Sandal and No Helmet and died - we would feel sympathy for the family, we may even feel sympathy at the loss of a fellow human being - but would we refrain from stating that his decision not to wear a Helmet was stupid and causal to his death? The reason KB doesn't allow 'Rider Down' threads is testament to exactly what would happen. I see this as applying the same standard(s) of behavior (even if it is 'unkind') equally, without respect to any characteristic of the person being discussed.

Finally - on the Defensive wounds comment - If anyone here was to try and Strangle me (or vice versa) - I'm willing to bet that whoever was on the receiving end wouldn't be too happy about it, and would likely do something to try and stop it. Now, it's possible in the heat of the moment when you are getting to the point of oxygen deprivation euphoria (which would be consensual up to then - the whole point of erotic asphyxiation) that when someone goes too far - one doesn't have the strength or wherewithal to fight them off, especially since the now-attacker is already in position, doing the strangling.

If analyzing a tragedy is Victim Blaming, then so be it, I'd rather be called names than have murdered Girls. If it's a case that 'well people ought not to do XYZ' - then yes, they definitely shouldn't - but there are people out there that do, we cannot control other people, we can only control ourselves.

[BMWST?]

Are you trying to do a mashman on us?

Where did I say anything about 'knowingly go and hang out with criminals'?

But at least you're starting to think about the safe/sensible aspect of this case.

Well done you.

you did "
So would you advise your daughter that it's perfectly fine to walk through a crime ridden neighbourhood"

[FJRider]

I'm going to add 2 things to this thread:

Nothing not already posted ...

1: If you go to any BDSM/Fetish/Kink/Alernative/whatever group/site/forum/message board/whatever - I can virtually guarantee you that amongst the top (and oldest) pinned threads or messages or blog posts will be one about evaluating a potential play partner. Said communique will go into great detail with advice on how to vet a potential partner, what things to be wary of, common do's and don'ts etc. There will also typically be a large amount of discussion on this topic in general. Whilst between groups there will be some regional differences, there is most definitely a common set of themes. The actions that Grace took, would not appear in the 'recommended' section in any of them.

Virtual guarantees aren't worth the paper they're printed on ...

Are these comments based on your personal experiences ... or just what you "Read" on those sites ...

2: For all the disagreements we have, Katman has not once said that Grace either deserved what happened to her or that any actions that she carelessly took should mitigate the culpability of the Killer. Instead he has pointed to a number of actions that at best would be considered 'risky' and unfortunately turned out to be the worst. To discuss these actions and to understand the chain of events may help someone else in a similar situation that it would be more prudent to make a different decision. That may end up saving a life, that may just end up in Blue Balls for both parties.

Motorcycling is dangerous ... yet we "Chuck a leg over" at any given opportunity. What makes HER any different than US as to the stupidity of the (either) practice .. ???

We all take risk, some of us take more risk than others. Some take risks, but with mitigation strategies to try and offset that Risk - For example, a Sky Diver has a primary and a reserve Parachute.

On the road with the unknown number of idiotic fuckwits that you/we share the road with ... there is no "mitigation". You either find the exception (ie:Fuckwit) or you don't. In either situation ... few consider a Fuckwit might actually kill YOU. It's ALWAYS somebody else ...

If someone tomorrow fell off their Bike, was a Male, and was wearing the Mk1 Safety Sandal and No Helmet and died - we would feel sympathy for the family, we may even feel sympathy at the loss of a fellow human being - but would we refrain from stating that his decision not to wear a Helmet was stupid and causal to his death? The reason KB doesn't allow 'Rider Down' threads is testament to exactly what would happen. I see this as applying the same standard(s) of behavior (even if it is 'unkind') equally, without respect to any characteristic of the person being discussed.

Bullshit. The reason that policy is in place ... is because it sometimes causes anguish to family reading threads on KB, seeing photo's, and hearing (as then) unconfirmed reports on the rider involved's "health". Or the idea that the bike involved looked like their friend/family member was riding. Unneeded anguish for the sake of of a "News" post on KB. Is KB "Green" worth more than a "Faceberks" Like ... ??? ...

Finally - on the Defensive wounds comment - If anyone here was to try and Strangle me (or vice versa) - I'm willing to bet that whoever was on the receiving end wouldn't be too happy about it, and would likely do something to try and stop it. Now, it's possible in the heat of the moment when you are getting to the point of oxygen deprivation euphoria (which would be consensual up to then - the whole point of erotic asphyxiation) that when someone goes too far - one doesn't have the strength or wherewithal to fight them off, especially since the now-attacker is already in position, doing the strangling.

Did you read the bit in the Autopsy report the signs of restraint was seen and noted. What sort of "restraint" that was used was not mentioned ...

If analyzing a tragedy is Victim Blaming, then so be it, I'd rather be called names than have murdered Girls. If it's a case that 'well people ought not to do XYZ' - then yes, they definitely shouldn't - but there are people out there that do, we cannot control other people, we can only control ourselves.

Newsflash. HE was found guilty in "a Court of his Peers" ... of murder. A victim is still a victim ... regardless of what the Victim could (or should) have done. 20/20 hindsight eh ...

Just as if a motorcyclist is killed in a crash on the road ... regardless of fault ... somebody died. Finding out cause is important ... but blame of the dead is usually pointless. It's only possible use ... is as a lesson to us all ...

But ... the repetition of the deaths on the road with the same basic causes ... the lessons are (more often than not) not learned ...

[FJRider]

I wouldn't think that anything that happened to her was a product of her actions.

Her "Actions" may well not be the intentional cause of the resulting product of conduct ... of another ... but that doesn't stop some getting some very funny ideas.

At the end of the day ... what you thought ... might be vastly different in the outcome ...

[Katman]

If someone tomorrow fell off their Bike, was a Male, and was wearing the Mk1 Safety Sandal and No Helmet and died - we would feel sympathy for the family, we may even feel sympathy at the loss of a fellow human being - but would we refrain from stating that his decision not to wear a Helmet was stupid and causal to his death?

Of course we would.

We are Kiwibiker.

[Katman]

What makes HER any different than US as to the stupidity of the (either) practice .. ???

I don't know about you, but at the end of the day, I don't ask pissed strangers to randomly swerve at me in their car just for me to feel alive.

[Katman]

Her "Actions" may well not be the intentional cause of the resulting product of conduct ... of another ... but that doesn't stop some getting some very funny ideas.

At the end of the day ... what you thought ... might be vastly different in the outcome ...

Dude....that's crazy talk...…

…..but add some dots...…

….I'm sure it will all make sense.

[TheDemonLord]

Virtual guarantees aren't worth the paper they're printed on ...

Are these comments based on your personal experiences ... or just what you "Read" on those sites ...

I'll leave that to your imagination, but I thought it was obvious...

Motorcycling is dangerous ... yet we "Chuck a leg over" at any given opportunity. What makes HER any different than US as to the stupidity of the (either) practice .. ???

Nothing, that's entirely the point. We take a risk, we are happy to take the risk and should something befall us, our peers will acknowledge the risks we took and critique accordingly

On the road with the unknown number of idiotic fuckwits that you/we share the road with ... there is no "mitigation". You either find the exception (ie:Fuckwit) or you don't. In either situation ... few consider a Fuckwit might actually kill YOU. It's ALWAYS somebody else ...

Except there is, the whole 'Road Craft' thing, safety gear, Bike technology - ALL Mitigation strategies. I think I've been clear that nothing is 100% foolproof, but to say there is no Mitigation (in any situation in life) is silly.

Bullshit. The reason that policy is in place ... is because it sometimes causes anguish to family reading threads on KB, seeing photo's, and hearing (as then) unconfirmed reports on the rider involved's "health". Or the idea that the bike involved looked like their friend/family member was riding. Unneeded anguish for the sake of of a "News" post on KB. Is KB "Green" worth more than a "Faceberks" Like ... ??? ...

And why the Anguish?

"Should have been wearing high viz"
"Was always riding like a Fuckwit"
"Had more ponies than they could handle"
"too busy trying to get the front wheel up"
"should have been concentrating on known danger zones"

etc.

just like what is happening here.

Did you read the bit in the Autopsy report the signs of restraint was seen and noted. What sort of "restraint" that was used was not mentioned ...

Unless the guy was an expert at using restraints, then there is usually enough movement available to 'leave a mark', but supposing this is correct - letting someone you've just met tie you up is a risk.

Newsflash. HE was found guilty in "a Court of his Peers" ... of murder. A victim is still a victim ... regardless of what the Victim could (or should) have done. 20/20 hindsight eh ...

Just as if a motorcyclist is killed in a crash on the road ... regardless of fault ... somebody died. Finding out cause is important ... but blame of the dead is usually pointless. It's only possible use ... is as a lesson to us all ...

But ... the repetition of the deaths on the road with the same basic causes ... the lessons are (more often than not) not learned ...

So you prove my point then:

'It's only possible use is as a lesson to us all' - Correct!

You further reinforce the point even more clearly: The lessons AREN'T learned, thus meaning that discussions like this, no matter how painful or condescending or 'victim blaming' are clearly still needed.

[MaxPenguin]

I'm going to add 2 things to this thread:

1: If you go to any BDSM/Fetish/Kink/Alernative/whatever group/site/forum/message board/whatever - I can virtually guarantee you that amongst the top (and oldest) pinned threads or messages or blog posts will be one about evaluating a potential play partner. Said communique will go into great detail with advice on how to vet a potential partner, what things to be wary of, common do's and don'ts etc. There will also typically be a large amount of discussion on this topic in general. Whilst between groups there will be some regional differences, there is most definitely a common set of themes. The actions that Grace took, would not appear in the 'recommended' section in any of them.

2: For all the disagreements we have, Katman has not once said that Grace either deserved what happened to her or that any actions that she carelessly took should mitigate the culpability of the Killer. Instead he has pointed to a number of actions that at best would be considered 'risky' and unfortunately turned out to be the worst. To discuss these actions and to understand the chain of events may help someone else in a similar situation that it would be more prudent to make a different decision. That may end up saving a life, that may just end up in Blue Balls for both parties.

We all take risk, some of us take more risk than others. Some take risks, but with mitigation strategies to try and offset that Risk - For example, a Sky Diver has a primary and a reserve Parachute.

If someone tomorrow fell off their Bike, was a Male, and was wearing the Mk1 Safety Sandal and No Helmet and died - we would feel sympathy for the family, we may even feel sympathy at the loss of a fellow human being - but would we refrain from stating that his decision not to wear a Helmet was stupid and causal to his death? The reason KB doesn't allow 'Rider Down' threads is testament to exactly what would happen. I see this as applying the same standard(s) of behavior (even if it is 'unkind') equally, without respect to any characteristic of the person being discussed.

Finally - on the Defensive wounds comment - If anyone here was to try and Strangle me (or vice versa) - I'm willing to bet that whoever was on the receiving end wouldn't be too happy about it, and would likely do something to try and stop it. Now, it's possible in the heat of the moment when you are getting to the point of oxygen deprivation euphoria (which would be consensual up to then - the whole point of erotic asphyxiation) that when someone goes too far - one doesn't have the strength or wherewithal to fight them off, especially since the now-attacker is already in position, doing the strangling.

If analyzing a tragedy is Victim Blaming, then so be it, I'd rather be called names than have murdered Girls. If it's a case that 'well people ought not to do XYZ' - then yes, they definitely shouldn't - but there are people out there that do, we cannot control other people, we can only control ourselves.

True words, anyone who thinks different needs to assess their motivations for disagreeing with and or putting words in katmans mouth.

[mashman]

True words, anyone who thinks different needs to assess their motivations for disagreeing with and or putting words in katmans mouth.

The OP

"Why isn't the message also being pushed, that if you happen to enjoy engaging in 'rough sex' (as is an individuals right), it's probably not wise to do so with someone you only met that night.

Personal responsibility seems to be taking a back seat yet again."

Who put words in Katmans mouth? he simply denies that responsibility has already being taken by all of those engaging in such acts. Personal responsibility was right up front, consented to and off they went. He clearly, clearly clearly clearly clearly, chooses not to accept that. His own words. Who put words in Katmans mouth?