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Thread: Grace Millane.

  1. #31
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    Believe it or not I totally see Katmans point of view here. Just because a technology enables us to do things faster (meet new people etc) it does not mean the usual precautions shouldn't be taken. We often hear how teenagers brains are not fully formed etc etc but really is this true? Or maybe its just the way we live now has removed risk from our everyday lives that youth does not recognise trouble when they see it… Its a bit like a defensive driving course isn't it - looking at situations and thinking hmmm what could possibly go wrong here...

    Having said that – his step brother described him as a sociopath and as a species they are not only very dangerous but initially charming. I wonder how many CEO’s have been hired at the first interview much to the employees regret later??

    As for the ‘rough sex’ argument.. Only two people ever knew what was discussed and agreed to that night and one of them is not saying much. I would suggest that the defence team, had they chosen to, could have taken the low road and bought up his history in similar depth but I suppose they were confident enough in his conviction they didn’t need to. I also suspect that it would be almost impossible to accidentally kill someone via sex to the point where they were leaking blood and again they didn’t belabour the point.

    I agree that agreeing to sex on the first date was unwise BUT we will never know what was said between them. Maybe she just wanted plain old sex first and work up to the other stuff later. Ie assuming she asked him for it is a big assumption. (by asking I mean in their discussions beforehand)

    Either way – I hope the prick rots in jail.


    ps - I didn't think much of the sensationalist reporting either...

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul in NZ View Post
    I agree that agreeing to sex on the first date was unwise BUT we will never know what was said between them. Maybe she just wanted plain old sex first and work up to the other stuff later. Ie assuming she asked him for it is a big assumption. (by asking I mean in their discussions beforehand)
    The thing that makes the strangulation aspect appear to be consensual, is the fact that evidence was submitted that Grace had no injuries that would suggest she was fighting the guy off.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    The thing that makes the strangulation aspect appear to be consensual, is the fact that evidence was submitted that Grace had no injuries that would suggest she was fighting the guy off.
    That could have happened in a variety of ways...

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul in NZ View Post
    That could have happened in a variety of ways...
    Combined with the fact that one of Grace's friends gave evidence that she was interested in strangulation during sex only adds to the probability that it was consensual.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    Combined with the fact that one of Grace's friends gave evidence that she was interested in strangulation during sex only adds to the probability that it was consensual.
    Pretty sure that the fatal bit wasn't consensual….


    'Rough' is a sliding scale as is strangulation. Like I said, no one knows what was agreed to BUT it sure went way over the reasonable limit. Its like you offer to take me on your katana for a quick spin down to a local café and we have a wee spill. Oops... Sorry - however you decide to go the long way and open it up and we fall off at 250kph... (actually its not like that at all but you get my drift)


    Its not really worth worrying about now of course other than a legal precedent has been set...

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul in NZ View Post
    Pretty sure that the fatal bit wasn't consensual….
    Really Paul? I thought you were capable of a somewhat more rational discussion than that. Clearly I was wrong.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul in NZ View Post
    Pretty sure that the fatal bit wasn't consensual….


    'Rough' is a sliding scale as is strangulation. Like I said, no one knows what was agreed to BUT it sure went way over the reasonable limit. Its like you offer to take me on your katana for a quick spin down to a local café and we have a wee spill. Oops... Sorry - however you decide to go the long way and open it up and we fall off at 250kph... (actually its not like that at all but you get my drift)
    I too doubt if the fatal bit was consensual ... but like in your comparison with the katana ... he had ample time and opportunity to slow down (even if you were enjoying it), but chose not to. HE was in control ... hence he was found guilty of murder ... not manslaughter.

    250 km/hr ... now you're just being silly ...
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    ... Clearly I was wrong.
    An admission of guilt ?? are you unwell .. ???

    Better delete your post before Husa uses it in his signature ...
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    Really Paul? I thought you were capable of a somewhat more rational discussion than that. Clearly I was wrong.
    Oh golly are you still trotting out the old I thought you were better than that bollocks??? Good grief - thats actually a little sad and leads me to think others posting here are correct..

    Yes - its actually an important point... If she was as reported interested in aspects of BDSM the foundation is safe sane and consentual. She would have consented to some actions and it went way further than that hence the murder conviction

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul in NZ View Post
    She would have consented to some actions and it went way further than that hence the murder conviction
    Don't be ridiculous Paul. I'm not questioning the murder conviction.

    I'm questioning whether there is legitimate reason to believe that the death could have been avoided with better attention to something called personal responsibility.

    Perhaps you could try addressing that issue rationally?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I'm not so sure that asking a complete stranger to strangle you while you're having sex could be considered normal - let alone sensible.
    where did it come out she asked him to strangle her?


    Quote Jan 2020 Posted by Katman

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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murray View Post
    where did it come out she asked him to strangle her?
    Probably around the same time it was submitted in evidence that she had asked her ex to do the same thing to her.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    Don't be ridiculous Paul. I'm not questioning the murder conviction.

    I'm questioning whether there is legitimate reason to believe that the death could have been avoided with better attention to something called personal responsibility.

    Perhaps you could try addressing that issue rationally?
    Avoided? Maybe.

    And I agree, many people are making poor decisions because the world ought to let them act that way, as opposed to making prudent decisions because of reality.

    Most of the time nothing bad happens, but occasionally it does.

    If I play devils advocate for the rebuttal of my above statement however - all the personal responsibility in the world will not alter the fact that (To quote the TF2 Sniper) "So long as there are 2 people left on the planet, someone is going to want someone dead". When people interact, there will be clashes of personality, fights, boundaries over-stepped, manslaughter and Murder.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    Don't be ridiculous Paul. I'm not questioning the murder conviction.

    I'm questioning whether there is legitimate reason to believe that the death could have been avoided with better attention to something called personal responsibility.

    Perhaps you could try addressing that issue rationally?
    Nope - your argument is flawed. With hindsight there is always a point on the timeline when every murder or accidental death could have been avoided if someone had made a different decision or taken personal responsibility. Say a dead prostitute is found floating in a river. Obviously she wasn't expecting that to happen and has met up with a murderer instead of a usual business transaction. Had she made a better decision earlier or made the rational decision that being a prostitute is hazardous then the murder might not have happened. That's not a defence for murder much like provocation isn't because we don't have 'degrees of murder' in NZ its a pretty binary decision.

    If you are driving a truck and someone does a you turn (or something equally mental) in front of you at a distance where you could easily stop in time or avoid them but instead you decide to teach them a lesson and speed up and run them down and kill them they you have effectively murdered that person. Yes they did something silly but you took advantage of that. The same applies for say a scam - the scammer cannot use 'oh they should have known better so its the victims fault' as a defence.

    Yes she placed herself in a dangerous situation. But she had reasonable hope that it would be safe if the other party acted in a reasonable fashion. My belief is that he took advantage of the situation and went way too far. His subsequent actions show a staggering lack of empathy and its 100% reasonable to consider that as a factor leading to her death.

    Hes taken advantage of a lapse in her part to commit this crime albeit he might not have a preformed intention to commit murder. I 100% believe he knew what he was doing and he would do it again in a flash if given the same chance.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul in NZ View Post
    That's not a defence for murder much like provocation isn't because we don't have 'degrees of murder' in NZ its a pretty binary decision.
    On one hand you say you totally see my point of view and then in the next breath you make it perfectly clear that you don't have a clue what my point is.

    I'm not defending Grace Millane's murderer.

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