The 2020 Election Thread

[Katman]

Which is doubly ironic because the Test literally takes 10-30 seconds.

Leaving aside the question of irony, why would those people who were given a compassionate exemption now thumb their noses at the entire country in such a manner?

[jasonu]

One of the things that bewilders me most about this whole fuck up is that the vast majority of those who were given a compassionate exemption and released without testing, are now refusing to be tested.

Where did it say that?

[TheDemonLord]

Leaving aside the question of irony, why would those people who were given a compassionate exemption now thumb their noses at the entire country in such a manner?

The only reason I can think of - is the worry that they might have it and they don't want to go into enforced isolation for 2-4 weeks.

But yeah, it's an odd behaviour.

I can see a civil liberties line of argument e.g. "The Government can't make me do XYZ" - but given the time it takes to have the test done and the minimally invasive nature (A swab up your nose, uncomfortable, but no blood, needles etc.) - not even I could get behind that argument.

[Katman]

Where did it say that?

It was reported on the news that 50 of the 54 cases of compassionate exemption weren't tested - and that 45 of those 50 are now refusing to be tested.

[Katman]

The only reason I can think of - is the worry that they might have it and they don't want to go into enforced isolation for 2-4 weeks.

But yeah, it's an odd behaviour.

I can see a civil liberties line of argument e.g. "The Government can't make me do XYZ" - but given the time it takes to have the test done and the minimally invasive nature (A swab up your nose, uncomfortable, but no blood, needles etc.) - not even I could get behind that argument.

Or maybe someone from the National party has been having a quiet word in their ears - encouraging them to milk the fuck up for all it's worth.

[pete376403]

Refusal to take the test should mean back to enforced 14 day quarantine. Maybe somewhere like Waiouru army base rather than a nice 5 star hotel. Actually make it 28 days to be doubly sure.

[TheDemonLord]

Or maybe someone from the National party has been having a quiet word in their ears - encouraging them to milk the fuck up for all it's worth.

But that doesn't make sense:

If an individual is refusing to take the Test, my anger is directed towards them, not so much the Government.

The damage from the government incompetence has already been done.

[jasonu]

It was reported on the news that 50 of the 54 cases of compassionate exemption weren't tested - and that 45 of those 50 are now refusing to be tested.

Not doubting you but can you post a link.

[Katman]

But that doesn't make sense:

If an individual is refusing to take the Test, my anger is directed towards them, not so much the Government.

The damage from the government incompetence has already been done.

It exacerbates the whole fuck up.

[Katman]

Not doubting you but can you post a link.

It would appear that the 45 people refusing tests aren't necessarily from the 54 exemptions but rather, part of the 119 that won't be tested that are mentioned in the paragraph headed '2,159 group'.

https://www.health.govt.nz/news-medi...ase-covid-19-2

[Ulsterkiwi]

At the very least - an admission that they (The Government as an entity) Fucked up.

Let's start there.

And this lack of admission of fault isn't solely restricted to Covid either.

But getting back to the fundamental question:

The real Ire however is that where the system 'Failed' is in such a manner that even basic common sense would have prevented it:

"We have some people coming in on compassionate grounds from overseas - should we:

A: Just let them in the country because She'll be right Mate.
or
B: Take the 30 seconds time it takes to have the test administered and hold them in isolation for 48 hours whilst we process the results"

To anyone, Labour voter or people like myself (not particularly happy with Labour) the answer is blatantly obvious - you test at the border and Isolate whilst the test results are processed. That this was not done and the result of this is effectively re-introduced a Pathogen into the country is inexcusable.

And yes, I put the failure for this onto the Leadership because it's the exact same lax border management that introduced Covid to NZ in the first place. So it is on that Basis that I think the correct thing to do would be for the Minister (or better yet, the Prime Minister...) to admit their mistakes, gracefully fall on their sword and get someone in who can understand the basics of isolation at the Border.

This is without going into the extreme slap in the face that multiple Kiwis have had with loosing their jobs/hours/homes etc. due entirely to the Lockdown (which IMO was excessive).

Summing it - Sure, I don't like Labour and every little thing that makes them look bad, I'll rejoice in that - I'm freely admitting to that Bias - if you consider that this taints my opinion to the point of discarding it, Fair enough, I hold no ill-will for that.

In this instance though, on the basic facts of the matter there have been multiple failures by the Government which they have refused to own up to and that this has cost the populace in multiple ways - it is on that basis that a call for resignation is justified.

I am no Labour fanboy. The current government is not perfect and not led by a Goddess.
However, there seems to be some difference in interpretation. I saw the PM say the system had failed and it was not acceptable. She also said it was her job to fix it. I agree.
Why would she say it was her job to fix something if it hadn't been screwed up?


You have made some more comments about testing which suggests an incomplete understanding of the capability of the testing process. It is entirely possible for someone to have been infected with COVID-19 and return a negative test.
Hence the 14 day isolation and 2 rounds of testing which the system calls for. This is the system the MOH assured cabinet was in place but was not administered for the two individuals in question. That was the failure.

You say the lockdown was excessive? Tell me about your qualifications, publication record and practice in virology/public health/infectious disease control, I didn't realise that was a sideline of yours. When I want to build IT infrastructure I will pay more attention to your opinion.
Actual expert advice was taken and a policy determined based on that. It appears NZ is all but unique in the world in terms of the level of control in place over the spread of COVID-19. Surely that places us in a very good position to address the economic impact which was going to happen anyway?
I may well be very wrong in that but I do know that the policy put in place and the efforts of the nation mean the financial and social cost of mass infections and deaths has been averted.
There was always going to be additional cases picked up at the border, please tell me when MOH or the government said otherwise.

If any Prime Minister were to resign every time there was a system failure we would be going through Prime Ministers at a rate something akin to Australia, probably much worse actually. That is the case irrespective of which party is in power at the time.


Is there clear evidence that there is large scale community transmission of COVID-19 as a direct consequence of this system failure? I am not aware of any such evidence.
Is there clear evidence that cabinet did not expect an appropriate, evidence based system of border control to be put in place by the various government agencies or that such expectation was not acted upon? I am not aware of any such evidence.
If there was, then I think we would be in the territory of ministerial and senior public servant resignations.
Until we are there, demanding resignations at that level for this problem is akin to sacking your pilot because the baggage handlers didnt get the luggage on board in time. I think the term is disproportionate response.


On another note

And this lack of admission of fault isn't solely restricted to Covid either.

What do you mean?

[jasonu]

I am no Labour fanboy. The current government is not perfect and not led by a Goddess.
However, there seems to be some difference in interpretation. I saw the PM say the system had failed and it was not acceptable. She also said it was her job to fix it. I agree.
Why would she say it was her job to fix something if it hadn't been screwed up?


You have made some more comments about testing which suggests an incomplete understanding of the capability of the testing process. It is entirely possible for someone to have been infected with COVID-19 and return a negative test.
Hence the 14 day isolation and 2 rounds of testing which the system calls for. This is the system the MOH assured cabinet was in place but was not administered for the two individuals in question. That was the failure.

You say the lockdown was excessive? Tell me about your qualifications, publication record and practice in virology/public health/infectious disease control, I didn't realise that was a sideline of yours. When I want to build IT infrastructure I will pay more attention to your opinion.
Actual expert advice was taken and a policy determined based on that. It appears NZ is all but unique in the world in terms of the level of control in place over the spread of COVID-19. Surely that places us in a very good position to address the economic impact which was going to happen anyway?
I may well be very wrong in that but I do know that the policy put in place and the efforts of the nation mean the financial and social cost of mass infections and deaths has been averted.
There was always going to be additional cases picked up at the border, please tell me when MOH or the government said otherwise.

If any Prime Minister were to resign every time there was a system failure we would be going through Prime Ministers at a rate something akin to Australia, probably much worse actually. That is the case irrespective of which party is in power at the time.


Is there clear evidence that there is large scale community transmission of COVID-19 as a direct consequence of this system failure? I am not aware of any such evidence.
Is there clear evidence that cabinet did not expect an appropriate, evidence based system of border control to be put in place by the various government agencies or that such expectation was not acted upon? I am not aware of any such evidence.
If there was, then I think we would be in the territory of ministerial and senior public servant resignations.
Until we are there, demanding resignations at that level for this problem is akin to sacking your pilot because the baggage handlers didnt get the luggage on board in time. I think the term is disproportionate response.


On another note



What do you mean?

Simply saying we fucked up but will fix it doesn't make it go away or let anyone off the hook for the fuck up. Since they were elected (by Winston Peters) Labour have had a so far never ending string of failures, blunders and fuck ups. The tooth monster has shown she is good at managing difficult situations but as far as running a country goes it has been a colossal failure. The way her luck has been running I wouldn't be surprised to see some other catastrophe just before voting time that will help all the dumb shits forget just how useless her and her party of muppets have been.

[TheDemonLord]

I am no Labour fanboy. The current government is not perfect and not led by a Goddess.
However, there seems to be some difference in interpretation. I saw the PM say the system had failed and it was not acceptable. She also said it was her job to fix it. I agree.
Why would she say it was her job to fix something if it hadn't been screwed up?

"The System had failed"

vs

"We have failed" - bit of a difference and given various actions of this Government, I'm not granting them any benefit of doubt.

You have made some more comments about testing which suggests an incomplete understanding of the capability of the testing process. It is entirely possible for someone to have been infected with COVID-19 and return a negative test.
Hence the 14 day isolation and 2 rounds of testing which the system calls for. This is the system the MOH assured cabinet was in place but was not administered for the two individuals in question. That was the failure.

I'm going off my first-hand experience of getting tested, but I'll accept your statement as is - the MOH assured the Cabinet that it was doing something, when it wasn't - I don't see how there is any other conclusion in that statement except a massive failure of the Leadership.

You say the lockdown was excessive? Tell me about your qualifications, publication record and practice in virology/public health/infectious disease control, I didn't realise that was a sideline of yours. When I want to build IT infrastructure I will pay more attention to your opinion.
Actual expert advice was taken and a policy determined based on that. It appears NZ is all but unique in the world in terms of the level of control in place over the spread of COVID-19. Surely that places us in a very good position to address the economic impact which was going to happen anyway?
I may well be very wrong in that but I do know that the policy put in place and the efforts of the nation mean the financial and social cost of mass infections and deaths has been averted.
There was always going to be additional cases picked up at the border, please tell me when MOH or the government said otherwise.

Australia, Hong Kong, Taiwan. I'm looking at what other countries did and what we did and it seems to me that at Level 3, allowing most businesses to operate we would have mitigated most of the potential hazzards and most importantly of all, not crippling the Economy.

If any Prime Minister were to resign every time there was a system failure we would be going through Prime Ministers at a rate something akin to Australia, probably much worse actually. That is the case irrespective of which party is in power at the time.

Sure, My dislike of the Prime Minister is certainly a factor here, however there is a long precedent of monumental screwups being grounds for a resignation.

Does the re-introduction of a Pathogen into the populace due to repeated incompetence meet the threshold for Monumental Screwup? You may not think so, but I put forward the case that objectively it doe

Is there clear evidence that there is large scale community transmission of COVID-19 as a direct consequence of this system failure? I am not aware of any such evidence.

Then why did we need the Lockdown in the first place? As the RISK of community transmission was the basis under which this was undertaken?

Both scenarios cannot coexist - if one is true, then the other must also be true.

Is there clear evidence that cabinet did not expect an appropriate, evidence based system of border control to be put in place by the various government agencies or that such expectation was not acted upon? I am not aware of any such evidence.

The Clear evidence here is that 50 or so people slipped through the cracks, Cracks which to even the most lay of lay-persons should not exist.

If there was, then I think we would be in the territory of ministerial and senior public servant resignations.
Until we are there, demanding resignations at that level for this problem is akin to sacking your pilot because the baggage handlers didnt get the luggage on board in time. I think the term is disproportionate response.

I've outlined my reasons as to why we are objectively in the territory, if you hold differently - then that's your prerogative.

On another note

What do you mean?

Something about giving someone a licence who didn't meet the requirements and then using that failure as an excuse to strip people of their property.

[Berries]

I may well be very wrong in that but I do know that the policy put in place and the efforts of the nation mean the financial and social cost of mass infections and deaths has been averted.

Temporarily? We are going to have cases arriving on a daily basis with people flying 'home' from wherever. Some of those will fall through cracks for whatever reason. I can't see why someone on Day 12 of hotel isolation can't catch it from an employee who has just been dealing with someone who is only two days in. They get the second test, return a negative and off they go. A week later when they fall sick they are in a different town and have spread it all over the place.

I'm stocking up on bog paper again, we'll be back at Level 3 or 4 sometime in July and the merry go round will start again. Only difference is there will be a new minister in charge and I will have a garage full of booze ready.

[Swoop]

and many peoples' insatiable need to vote so that they can have their say...

Sadly we are seeing less & less people doing just that.
They are happy to complain about whoever is in power though. All of the adverts by the elewctoral commission ("the orange guy"*) seem to have little effect on voter numbers.




* I wonder if that will change this year due to the orange American guy??

At the very least - an admission that they (The Government as an entity) Fucked up.

And yes, I put the failure for this onto the Leadership because it's the exact same lax border management that introduced Covid to NZ in the first place. So it is on that Basis that I think the correct thing to do would be for the Minister (or better yet, the Prime Minister...) to admit their mistakes, gracefully fall on their sword and get someone in who can understand the basics of isolation at the Border.

This is without going into the extreme slap in the face that multiple Kiwis have had with loosing their jobs/hours/homes etc. due entirely to the Lockdown (which IMO was excessive).

I note that the leader of the labour party has vanished from public view recently. Normally she has had her face in every camera available, but now people are waking up to the level of ineptitude this bunch of clowns have been responsible for, she's gone AWOL.

A population who were expected to isolate and financially suffer, are now being insulted by the recent returnees and the re-introduction of cases of the disease.