The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

[jellywrestler]

Other people's blood? I must have missed the bit where you put your blood on the line for freedom. Forgive me.

so are they going to keep this omicron shit dribbling into the community at ten a day and shut down so much so we have to deal with the actual outbreak in the colder months or what? It's about time someone with it did a roadie so we can all get it over and done with and still have some summer left.

[TheDemonLord]

Other people's blood? I must have missed the bit where you put your blood on the line for freedom. Forgive me.

I do my bit, in my own way.

Granted, I've never served in the Armed Forces (and that's only because NZ doesn't have a fighter jet wing).

[R650R]

so are they going to keep this omicron shit dribbling into the community at ten a day and shut down so much so we have to deal with the actual outbreak in the colder months or what? It's about time someone with it did a roadie so we can all get it over and done with and still have some summer left.

Apparently despite 90% being vaccinated it’s to give people time Tim get better vacccinsted.....

But your right we should let nature run it’s course, all over seas experts say omicron is less severe and it triggers a different part of immune system helping build natural immunity.

Just look at Xmas and new year holiday period suddenly we went overnight from 200 cases a week to twenty something. How did that happen? It happened because no one wanted to be imprisined during their holiday so I’d bet a heap of people who had sniffles and didn’t need to bludge some sick pay skipped being tested. How did it not explode with peoplectravelling all over country????
Fresh air and salt water maybe????!

The best thing about this new lockdown level 3.2(tm) also marketed as Red(tm) is it’s letting the party faithful see the truth. We all got vaccinated downloaded apps and scanned stuff everywhere just so the govt could let the latest version until coubtry with poorly managed border controls.

[FJRider]

Certainly the concepts of Rights had it's origins in Protestant Christianity - which is the 'God Given' part, however, you note that I use the phrase 'Natural rights', because I'm an Atheist - The right to own the fruits of my Labour, the Right to move, the right to Speak and think, the right to defend myself and the Right to bodily autonomy - all of those are not hinged on the concept of a Deity.

Most of what I posted in regard of "Natural Rights" ... the words were not mine. Nothing was seen in regards of Fruits of labour, rights to move, rights to speak, rights to defend yourself ... or the right to bodily autonomy.

Fruits of your labour are called wages ... get a paying job anytime you like. Australia is a nice place ... go now before the rush starts. You talk to much. Fat useless pricks are seldom any good at defending themselves ... so I can see why you need rights to protect yourself. I would have said go fuck yourself ... but you're obviously not keen on that either.

The spark of Divinity is slightly harder for the Atheist, but I can say that you, as the individual, have an intrinsic value. The same intrinsic value that I have - and so any affront to you, is the possibility of an affront to me. I am therefore motivated to uphold your rights, because in doing so - I'm upholding my own. Or to use the ancient maxim: 'Treat others as you wish to be treated'.

You are entitled to your opinion ... but unless it's written into law ... good luck.

So you can articulate a moral basis for the concept of Natural rights, without an appeal to God.

You do ...

The rights I have to do things, own things, go places ... and have things like a living wage ... were earned through a lifetime of hard work.

Not sitting on my ass and getting all I wanted handed to me Gratis.

And ... certainly NOT given to me by ANY God.

ps: Life isn't always fair. Get over it.

[husaberg]

Apparently despite 90% being vaccinated it’s to give people time Tim get better vacccinsted.....

But your right we should let nature run it’s course, all over seas experts say omicron is less severe and it triggers a different part of immune system helping build natural immunity.

Just look at Xmas and new year holiday period suddenly we went overnight from 200 cases a week to twenty something. How did that happen? It happened because no one wanted to be imprisined during their holiday so I’d bet a heap of people who had sniffles and didn’t need to bludge some sick pay skipped being tested. How did it not explode with peoplectravelling all over country????
Fresh air and salt water maybe????!

The best thing about this new lockdown level 3.2(tm) also marketed as Red(tm) is it’s letting the party faithful see the truth. We all got vaccinated downloaded apps and scanned stuff everywhere just so the govt could let the latest version until coubtry with poorly managed border controls.

shit dude, first you have said covid is nothing and the govt is over reacting, then its the worst ever and the Govt has not done enough, Then you are back to they are doing to much
At least your total inconsistency is consistent......
What are your scientific or medial qualifications that give you such insights to have a more qualified opinion than a medical or scientific expert?

The noun Pandemic is not mentioned in that post, does one not understand grammar.

Every disease is a Pandemic in the modern world as they all spread “across the country or roundvthe world”.

1600 people sick in a country of 5 million is no crisis worth destroying jobs and lives for.

Well well well, our journey into communist hell continues.

There has only been 1650 alleged cases (out of 700,000 tests!!!!) of the virus, but what has spread faster has been submission to communist control.
Nearly 2 million have downloaded the Covid app so you can be sent to a govt “ health” camp to catch the virus if you didnt already have it.
You don’t have to wear a mask if it affects your physical or mental health and you do NOT need to present documents to prove this.

It’s quite clear now as the mountain of contradictions grow that it’s not about stopping the “virus”..
Masks are for destroying social interaction and communication with strangers. You know those moments in life when some shitbag is bashing his missus and enough of you make visual contact to know you’ve got each other back and intervene.
But with masks there will never be any Flight 93 “lets roll” moments of bravery, you’ll never know if your fellow citizen is a Karen or Stasi as you reluctantly board the blacked out train carriage...
A cop will never see your friendly smile, never know you like them and not let you off that minor stop sign indescretion...

Your odds of dying from Covid in NZ is about the same as winning Powerball....
People dream of winning powerball, actively visit known powerball superspreader hot zones twice a week in hope of winning...

Meanwhile about 6 times as many people die in drink drive car crashes.
We even have mass random surveillance testing for that too, typically about 1.5-2% are ‘ infected’ with the influence of alcohol.....
Would we tolerate say a 24hr lockdown every time you bought a beer at bar?
Or after your night at the bar you don’t leave through the front door, a govt agent escorts you to a ‘quarantine ‘ facility which you can’t leave for 24 hrs.
Just imagine that, we would ABSOLUTELY save 150 lives a year
The govt will NEVER do that so why all this crap with the virus where the potential victim has a 93% chance of not even needing hospital treatment...

Can you imagine a Pandemic being declared of the PM said oh by the way 93% of you that actually manage to contract the virus won’t need to go to hospital just stay home and rest.
Nothing else matters the maths tells the story, especially post lockdown any new cases should have spread massively as everyone suddenly enjoyed a watered down form of freedom.
And just think of all those Asymptomatic cases in the 3,800,000 people that have NOT been tested...
There should be another 6600 odd positive cases, another 400 extra in hospital and another 75 people dead, where are they????

Well it seems the MORE deadly and MORE contagious delta variant failed to deliver... just think about that, the infected person came on a flight where people would have taken masks off at times to eat and drink and all shared the same inflight tier facilities. THEN they sauntered all over a MAJOR metropolitan area and thefe was no outbreak.
Guess that’s why an ever nastier version lambda? Starts with L has just been “ discovered”....

Oh but we’ve locked down so quick, yes but not before the exposure events and not before all those exposed on weekends away returned to provincial centres.

One has to wonder if the new respiratory infection in young kids is a result of the sterility of lockdown life not letting there immune systems learn properly in early development months as the age band is very low.

[TheDemonLord]

Most of what I posted in regard of "Natural Rights" ... the words were not mine. Nothing was seen in regards of Fruits of labour, rights to move, rights to speak, rights to defend yourself ... or the right to bodily autonomy.

Commonly expressed as 'Life, Liberty and Property'

Life is your Self Defence and Bodily Autonomy.
Liberty is the Freedom to move and to speak
And Property is the fruits of your labour.

You are entitled to your opinion ... but unless it's written into law ... good luck.

Sure, but the problem here (if you want to challenge that notion) is that it just so happens to be the bedrock upon which our Civilization rests.

It's the reason that the Government (currently at least...) don't kick peoples doors in at 4 am and whisk them off for a spot of Torture and re-education.

There are many places in the world that DON'T share that philsophical foundation, and they have all sorts of delightful problems.

You do ...

The rights I have to do things, own things, go places ... and have things like a living wage ... were earned through a lifetime of hard work.

If they are Earned, then they aren't rights.

Not sitting on my ass and getting all I wanted handed to me Gratis.

And ... certainly NOT given to me by ANY God.

ps: Life isn't always fair. Get over it.

Sure, I don't believe that the rights are God Given, but I do believe that they are Natural. Both from a purely logical point of view, but also from an empirical point of view.

Consider this: The most powerful and prosperous nation on earth has these principles enshrined in their Constitution, their highest law - that isn't an accident.

[pritch]

Well gents, reading these recent posts was a good start to the day. Quite a few laughs, some intentional, others less so.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

[sugilite:Me]

Consider this: The most powerful and prosperous nation on earth has these principles enshrined in their Constitution, their highest law - that isn't an accident.

And yet both sides of their political divide are doing their darnedest to undermine and break down those principles - also no accident.
At the rate they are going, you will need to add the word "former" most powerful and prosperous nation.

[TheDemonLord]

And yet both sides of their political divide are doing their darnedest to undermine and break down those principles - also no accident.
At the rate they are going, you will need to add the word "former" most powerful and prosperous nation.

Funny, there's only one side that seeks Mandates, and it isn't the Republicans. Not saying they are perfect, but they have consistently been on the side of individual choice and freedom (in line with American principles).

But yes, I agree at the rate they are going.

It's almost like when the ruling party abandons those principles, it goes to shit...

Almost like there's some empirical wisdom in them...

[Kendog]

Consider this: The most powerful and prosperous nation on earth has these principles enshrined in their Constitution, their highest law - that isn't an accident.

So why did they fuck up their response to Covid so badly?

Inside the top 20 deaths per million population.
Almost 900,000 dead

[TheDemonLord]

So why did they fuck up their response to Covid so badly?

Inside the top 20 deaths per million population.
Almost 900,000 dead

To quote Benjamin Franklin:

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

It's entirely in the ethos of the United States that Liberty has a cost (Freedom isn't Free...) and therefore if people die, but liberty is preserved - it's considered not only Just, but Noble. To quote another famous US phrase:

Give me liberty, or give me death!

And finally (because it's always good to include a Meme)



Back to the actual issue:

Add in to that - you have lots of internal Air Travel and public transport usage, a Massively aging and overweight population and in the big cities, high population density.

All factors that made the USA hit quite hard.

[R650R]

So why did they fuck up their response to Covid so badly?

Inside the top 20 deaths per million population.
Almost 900,000 dead

Just out of interest what’s it like under Biden? Cause wasn’t all the deaths trumps fault????
Trumps racist actions in closing birder to China stopped Chinese people from coming to die in America so that prob distorted the stats

[FJRider]

Commonly expressed as 'Life, Liberty and Property'

Life is your Self Defence and Bodily Autonomy.
Liberty is the Freedom to move and to speak
And Property is the fruits of your labour.

If you have life ... you're breathing. Always a good start to the day if you know you're breathing. What you do with your life is what counts.
Liberty is the ability to go where you wish. Within the bounds of law. In these times of Covid ... a few have a little less liberty to go where they please.
Property is owned ... and not always by you. For many ... the fruits of their labour (or Benefit) is a meal at McDonalds.

Sure, but the problem here (if you want to challenge that notion) is that it just so happens to be the bedrock upon which our Civilization rests.

Your opinion is YOUR opinion. Your opinions are not the "Bedrock on which our Civilization[sic] rests.

If you have confused your opinions as being part of "Freedom of speech" ... the Law is quite specific about what you can or can't say.

It's the reason that the Government (currently at least...) don't kick peoples doors in at 4 am and whisk them off for a spot of Torture and re-education.

Kick the doors down ... yep they STILL do. Long periods of questioning at the local (or not so local) Police station happen. Some might call that torture.

Bugger eh .. !!!

There are many places in the world that DON'T share that philsophical foundation, and they have all sorts of delightful problems.

Not my problem. I don't go to those places (without being armed).

If they are Earned, then they aren't rights.

I have the right to buy property ... but I need money. Until I earn it ... I wont get property.

I have heard Beneficiaries on TV moaning ... that their Benefit isn't enough to buy themselves a house.

Even the right to liberty is earned ... by continued good behavior and undetected crime. Thus your liberty can be withheld. Indefinitely.

Sure, I don't believe that the rights are God Given, but I do believe that they are Natural. Both from a purely logical point of view, but also from an empirical point of view.

Bullshit. I've seen you mention your "God given rights" in this very forum.

Even the countries that have laws based on Human Rights ... will have conditions and restrictions (written into their law as in NZ) ... as in "Free" speech. There ARE restrictions on what you can legally say.

Consider this: The most powerful and prosperous nation on earth has these principles enshrined in their Constitution, their highest law - that isn't an accident.

What nation would that be ... ?? If you think its the USA ... think again. Count the zero's in their listed National debit.

Personally ... I doubt you can count that high.

[FJRider]

To quote Benjamin Franklin:

Unless you read the background to that quote ... you cannot quote with accuracy. And ACTUAL fact.

He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns. The proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so the Penn family actually intended (literally) buy a little temporary safety. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

So ... far from being a pro-privacy quotation ... if anything ... it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

It is also a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means (in context) not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying ... but much closer to the opposite of what people think it means.

Look it up if you don't believe me.

It's entirely in the ethos of the United States that Liberty has a cost (Freedom isn't Free...) and therefore if people die, but liberty is preserved - it's considered not only Just, but Noble.

Many died fighting for the USA to remain free and gave up their liberty and lives to achieve that.

The true cost of Liberty is always understated. But it was earned at a cost.

Few will know to thank those that gave up their own freedoms and rights (one being to stay alive) ... for the privilege of those remaining ... to enjoy their freedoms ... rights ... AND LIVES.


And quite a number of New Zealanders died to preserve OUR "RIGHT" to those freedoms.

[TheDemonLord]

If you have life ... you're breathing. Always a good start to the day if you know you're breathing. What you do with your life is what counts.
Liberty is the ability to go where you wish. Within the bounds of law. In these times of Covid ... a few have a little less liberty to go where they please.
Property is owned ... and not always by you. For many ... the fruits of their labour (or Benefit) is a meal at McDonalds.

You're essentially making the argument that Covid restrictions are immoral - which I entirely applaud.

Your opinion is YOUR opinion. Your opinions are not the "Bedrock on which our Civilization[sic] rests.

If you have confused your opinions as being part of "Freedom of speech" ... the Law is quite specific about what you can or can't say.

The Bedrock is the Protestant notion that the Individual contains the spark of Divinity and that any affront to the individual is an affront to God.

From there we got the concept of 'God Given Rights' something which was ordained by a higher authority than Man and so could not be restricted by Man.
These evolved in the Western philosophical cannon (Hobbes/Locke) that without any Government, an Individual had certain Freedoms that existed in Nature (Natural Rights) and that these were equivalent to the notion of God Given, without the appeal to a deity.

I'm not confused, this is simply the fact of how our society Evolved. In terms of Freedom of Speech - sure Libel/slander is prohibited, but that is usually judged with a bias towards Freedom of Speech (well, it used to be...)

Kick the doors down ... yep they STILL do. Long periods of questioning at the local (or not so local) Police station happen. Some might call that torture.

Bugger eh .. !!!

I'm talking more about the Re-education type of Torture, the Social Credit type of police raid.

Not my problem. I don't go to those places (without being armed).

And when those places come to you, because of the erosion of the bulwark against them that was Western Civilization, what then?

Even the right to liberty is earned ... by continued good behavior and undetected crime. Thus your liberty can be withheld. Indefinitely.

Nope, that's the wrong way to conceptualize it.

You have Liberty, until you violate the liberty of others. It is not Earned, it is Granted until YOU violate it.

Bullshit. I've seen you mention your "God given rights" in this very forum.

Correct, normally in conjuction with 'Natural Rights', because I'm an Atheist.

Even the countries that have laws based on Human Rights ... will have conditions and restrictions (written into their law as in NZ) ... as in "Free" speech. There ARE restrictions on what you can legally say.

Some might say that those restrictions (see the Covid Lockdowns, Covid Passports, Jacinda's 'Two-Tier society') are in complete violation of those Human Rights.

Most can accept the concept of Libel/Slander as an exception to Free Speech, since it violates the rights of others, apart from that, there is very little that is restricted.

Hell, I can go to Whitcoulls/Amazon and buy a copy of the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf, although I should add - with their banning/censorious nature, if Labour continue, I'm not sure how long such things will last.

What nation would that be ... ?? If you think its the USA ... think again. Count the zero's in their listed National debit.

Personally ... I doubt you can count that high.

If WW3 happened tomorrow, which side would you want to be on?

The Yanks, The Chinese, the Russians, The British?

For all their faults, the Yanks are still the biggest kid on the block (despite Biden's best efforts to destroy that)

Unless you read the background to that quote ... you cannot quote with accuracy. And ACTUAL fact.

He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns. The proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so the Penn family actually intended (literally) buy a little temporary safety. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

So ... far from being a pro-privacy quotation ... if anything ... it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

It is also a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means (in context) not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying ... but much closer to the opposite of what people think it means.

Look it up if you don't believe me.

I'm aware of the original context, however the reason it has been remembered through the nearly 250 years since it was written is because it articulates an ethos that is core to the American identity.

There are other phrases that have had drastic changes to their meaning over time - the lady doth Protest too much as an example.

So yes, Franklin may have meant it in the context you cited, but the context that has preserved it through the ages is the one in which I and virtually everyone else who cites it, uses it.

Many died fighting for the USA to remain free and gave up their liberty and lives to achieve that.

The true cost of Liberty is always understated. But it was earned at a cost.

Few will know to thank those that gave up their own freedoms and rights (one being to stay alive) ... for the privilege of those remaining ... to enjoy their freedoms ... rights ... AND LIVES.

And quite a number of New Zealanders died to preserve OUR "RIGHT" to those freedoms.

I totally agree, which is why often you will see anti-Lockdown and anti-Authoritarian statements evoking the sacrifices made for freedom by those that have fallen.