The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

[TheDemonLord]

Why ... ?? I've had ALL the vaccinations currently required and available to me ...

Until they change the rules or simply decide to revoke your status as to what is considered Vaccinated. They tried in the UK, but after Bojo got caught partying it up, they (wisely) decided to not pursue it.

AND ... If I replaced the words DemonLord in each and every reply to your posts ... with COMPLETE AND TOTAL FUCKWIT ... in these Kiwibiker forums ... it would be met with rapturous applause. Your point is .. ???

I'd rather be called a Fuckwit than be advocating for Concentation Camps and other Fascist ideas...

I have thought about doing the above ... but you have no sense of humour ... and would complain like a spoilt two year old to the site Moderators ... about how offended you are ...

A sense of reality ... obviously isn't your strong point ...

Okay. Can find any moderator on this site that has EVER received any report from me about being 'Offended'.

The closest you will come to was many years ago when Katman was rep-spamming me with just abuse. But that's not Offended, that's just bad Netiquette (and a breach of the site rules).

See, the problem you have here is I have a long history of not whining to the Mods and very vociferously sticking up for people I am disagreeing with. I happen to be very much a Free Speech absolutist (see Natural Rights and all that).

Did you read the actual requirements for the Government to introduce such a policy ... in the interests of Nationwide health and Public safety. When people start dying ... they CAN START THE POLICY. Did you read the minimum number of deaths ... that would validate the instigation of the policy .. ??

How'd that work out in Canada?

Honk Honk.

They pose more of a threat to THEMSELVES ... than me ...

I'm vaccinated ... remember ...

So why do you need them to go into Camps or be excluded from Cafes? If they drop dead, what business is it of yours? You're vaccinated, remember?

It was in regard to your post of ... when did that happen in regard to "My very words" .. ???

Ah yes, because Public Policy is well known to spontaneously spring into existence (okay, with this Government, you could be forgiven for thinking that)...

In actual fact it starts with people having ideas. Like 50% of a group being in favor of Concentration Camps. Add to that, you (by your words) are in favor of them

If you learn to read ... with a basic understanding of the English language .. you might see I posted " But you're not alone ... Dorkland seems full of them". Point out where I said YOU live in Auckland .. ???

There's a standard convention of the English language that references to an individual and then to a group (with a shared characteristic) is implying membership of that Group.

See also 'Libel by implication'

But until that sort of legislation is introduced in NZ ... you cannot tell me ... "I Told You So" ... as per my actual quote ... which you actually didn't quote properly ... or accurately. Is English your second language .. ??? (I think I might have asked you that before)

That you think it's okay is all the 'I told you so' I need.

Unless of course you wish to retract that and say it's actually a really bad idea because they don't pose a threat to you...

Don't think "Concentration Camps" ... that is a bit harsh. Think instead ... maybe ... HEALTH camps. You'll feel much better about the idea.

It would be in the interest of ALL their health needs after all ...

You can call it a 5 star all expenses paid resort. Still won't change it into something that isn't reprehensible.

[Kickaha]

Found in the Declaration of Helsinki: "No national or international ethical, legal or regulatory requirement should reduce or eliminate any of the protections for research subjects set forth in this Declaration".

Yes, "research subjects" think about that for a minute and see if you can work it out

[mashman]

Yes, "research subjects" think about that for a minute and see if you can work it out

What does it matter what I work out. I'll wait for the law to make its determination and then society to enforce their will. As I said before "I guess one can pick and choose eh.".

[FJRider]

Nuremberg Code usurps national rules every day of the week. When something is 99.x% survivable and it is considered a threat to the extent that national rules are invoked in the face of such legally binding criteria............

Initially .. and continue to be invoked .. the "National Rules" were instigated to ensure (as best they could) the safety of good health for as many of the New Zealand population as could be achieved.

After the Unemployment Benefit Beneficiaries ... the second biggest group of Beneficiaries is those on a Sickness Benefit. The next biggest group is the Solo Parent Benefit. These three groups of people have the most to lose in regard to their own health ... and the lives they are responsible for. The very groups ... that if Covid got amongst on any scale ... the existing death toll might be quite a bit higher.

The vaccines were provided FREE to ALL NZ citizens. It is NOT compulsory. Those that choose not to be vaccinated ... knew that there were to be downsides to that choice of (in)action. The vaccinated people can apparently spread the virus ... but how many vaccinated people have been infected by it ... or died from it .. ??

Vaccine passes are not required in any essential service. All supply (food, drink, hardware, medical .. etc) do not require a covid pass.

But I can't see why the angst is for some .. to be against getting the jabs. Freedom of choice indeed ... but freely taken choices that have downsides.

I can't believe this situation (Covid Pass restrictions) will be a permanent part of daily life in NZ (or anywhere else). As for how long it will go on for ... only time will tell. It will be forever part of New Zealand History for sure. The survivors will tell the stories about it ... and future generations might learn from the era. Maybe ... what will be learned ... is yet to be learned.

"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." - Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials

42 dead from Covid so far (as I recall) compare that to the "Free" ares in other countries. Those 42 dead probably never thought Covid would cause their death. Few (if any) un-vaccinated persons will actually believe they could/will die also ... or could cause others (they don't know) to be infected ... and possibly die.

Covid is 99.x% survivable. Yet No, throw those very carefully thought out rules out of the window. I can't ride the bus. I can't go to a movie. I can't even sit in a restaurant. You are treating a section of society worse than those who called people "Niggers" up til the, well, primarily 60's I guess... coz at least they had a section they were allowed to sit in. The fear is beyond irrational given the evidence of the last 2 years, and it proves what Goering states without question.

That "Section of society" were told what would happen if they weren't vaccinated. ... And it happened.

And I've been called a "Honky" a few times ... supposedly as an attempt as an insult. To get a reaction ... and maybe an excuse for a fight.

Do you really need to go down that road .. ??? What do you gain .. ??? Knee-jerk reaction from our PM ... of tougher rules ... possibly. And those that think the existing rules are tough ... watch this space. If Covid plays tougher ... so will the rules.

As I understand ... all you need to have to get on a bus is a mask and money for the fare. Seating arrangement is your choice (still). No Covid passport needed.

For the record, I know of 1 dead within 48 hours after vaccination and 1 with pericarditis. I know of a fair few who have had covid, both vaccinated and unvaccinated, none of whom are dead or suffering long term effects. Yet experimental vaccination get to create a 4th world population in under 2 years. Goering was right about you guys. Those who didn't get vaccinated obeyed the law, and I Am proud of them for that .

As I understand ... most of the covid related deaths were people with underlying conditions ... not simply THE cause of their death. So far. That is not necessarily how deaths related with Covid ... will always be in the future.

Some (still alive) may (or may not) know the seriousness of their condition(s) in relation to how being infected/affected by Covid will be ... for them. Or that their choices might affect/infect ... OTHERS.


Freedom to choose can have it's price.

Vaccinations and/or good health can help.



Obscure comparisons with historical events cant. You wont change the minds of any ... by insulting them.

[TheDemonLord]

https://sites.krieger.jhu.edu/iae/fi...-Mortality.pdf

So, to be fair, this is only a Meta-Analysis (which looks at other studies and then forms conclusions based on the studies it looks at) - so we should be skeptical, the conclusion however is most interesting:

Conclusions
Overall, our meta-analysis fails to confirm that lockdowns have had a large, significant effect on
mortality rates. Studies examining the relationship between lockdown strictness (based on the
OxCGRT stringency index) find that the average lockdown in Europe and the United States only
reduced COVID-19 mortality by 0.2% compared to a COVID-19 policy based solely on
recommendations. Shelter-in-place orders (SIPOs) were also ineffective. They only reduced
COVID-19 mortality by 2.9%.

Studies looking at specific NPIs (lockdown vs. no lockdown, facemasks, closing non-essential
businesses, border closures, school closures, and limiting gatherings) also find no broad-based
evidence of noticeable effects on COVID-19 mortality. However, closing non-essential
businesses seems to have had some effect (reducing COVID-19 mortality by 10.6%), which is
likely to be related to the closure of bars. Also, masks may reduce COVID-19 mortality, but
there is only one study that examines universal mask mandates. The effect of border closures,
school closures and limiting gatherings on COVID-19 mortality yields precision-weighted
estimates of -0.1%, -4.4%, and 1.6%, respectively. Lockdowns (compared to no lockdowns) also
do not reduce COVID-19 mortality.

So I want to pose this as a question - I've been quite consistent on my Anti-Lockdown stance, I want everyone to imagine if instead of a countrywide Lockdown, they only closed the Bars.

To be fair, I'd still be opposed to that, but the science does seem that closing Bars had the biggest impact on Mortality reduction.

[FJRider]

Until they change the rules ...

Wait and see shall we ... ?? Give me a call a say "I Told you so" if it does.

Okay. Can find any moderator on this site that has EVER received any report from me about baaeing 'Offended'.

What's baaeing offended .. ???

Have they received any from you for abuse of a member .. ??

The closest you will come to was many years ago when Katman was rep-spamming me with just abuse. But that's not Offended, that's just bad Netiquette (and a breach of the site rules).

Just like you do with me you mean .. ??

See, the problem you have here is I have a long history of not whining to the Mods and very vociferously sticking up for people I am disagreeing with. I happen to be very much a Free Speech absolutist (see Natural Rights and all that).

I heard differently.

Read the rules then. See for yourself.

So why do you need them to go into Camps or be excluded from Cafes? If they drop dead, what business is it of yours? You're vaccinated, remember?

Free food ... a roof over their heads ... all the un-vaccinated in one (or two) place(s) ... All agreeing with each other ... free medical care for those that get infected by another un-vaccinated ... and the vaccinated don't have to wait until those refused service stop arguing and leave before we get served.

What about that ... is not to be liked .. ??

Ah yes, because Public Policy is well known to spontaneously spring into existence (okay, with this Government, you could be forgiven for thinking that)...

In actual fact it starts with people having ideas. Like 50% of a group being in favor of Concentration Camps. Add to that, you (by your words) are in favor of them

As I said ... Concentration camps might be a bit harsh. But you continuing to use the term ... might be called exaggeration ... a policy you often use.

There's a standard convention of the English language that references to an individual and then to a group (with a shared characteristic) is implying membership of that Group.

See also 'Libel by implication'

SUE ... or report me to the Moderators.

That you think it's okay is all the 'I told you so' I need.

Easily satisfied.

Unless of course you wish to retract that and say it's actually a really bad idea because they don't pose a threat to you...

Nah ...

You can call it a 5 star all expenses paid resort. Still won't change it into something that isn't reprehensible.

At best ... two (small) stars ... did I mention free food ... ??

One in Waiouru and one in Tekapo. Central locations for the convenience of those in either Islands.

Might work.

[mashman]

Obscure comparisons with historical events cant. You wont change the minds of any ... by insulting them.

It was neither obscure nor insulting. Your choice how to read things. My freedoms were taken. The non-vaccinated are being vilified for a lack of patriotism (the posters on here alone are evidence enough). Whether the jab worked or not, most of you dipshits have turned it into a loyalty contest, proving Goering absolutely bang on the money.

[TheDemonLord]

What's baaeing offended .. ???

Have they received any from you for abuse of a member .. ??
Just like you do with me you mean .. ??
Read the rules then. See for yourself.

Okay FJRider - I said to Pritch in another thread that I can take any amount of critique (spicy or otherwise) on any position that I hold, but I get rather irritated about lies about my personal Character.

So if you think I've been talking with ANY mod about any Post you've ever made - By all means, put up the Evidence. If not, then I expect a retraction.

The only time I've ever complained to a Mod about another Members behavior was all the way back in July 2016 and that was Katman who (at the time) was Rep-Bombing me (breach of the site rules), after the Mod had a word, he went back to just giving me the occasional Red rep when he thought I was being an idiot.

If you have the Evidence, then by all means - Present it. If not I expect a retraction.

Free food ... a roof over their heads ... all the un-vaccinated in one (or two) place(s) ... All agreeing with each other ... free medical care for those that get infected by another un-vaccinated ... and the vaccinated don't have to wait until those refused service stop arguing and leave before we get served.

What about that ... is not to be liked .. ??

Let's ask the Jews.
Or the Uyghurs.
Or the Zeks.
Or the Chams.

The answer is Freedom.

As I said ... Concentration camps might be a bit harsh. But you continuing to use the term ... might be called exaggeration ... a policy you often use.

Well, let's look at the definition, shall we?

concentration camp, internment centre for political prisoners and members of national or minority groups who are confined for reasons of state security

Minority group - Check.
Reasons of 'State Security' (read 'National Health') - Check.

The boot fits.

SUE ... or report me to the Moderators.

I don't report people to Mods - as above, if you've got some Evidence - Post it up, if not - issue a retraction.

Nah ...

Just proving the point still. I mean I'll hand it to you, it's one hell of a commitment to support Concentration Camps in order to be on the opposite side of a Debate from me - so Bravo.

At best ... two (small) stars ... did I mention free food ... ??

One in Waiouru and one in Tekapo. Central locations for the convenience of those in either Islands.

Might work.

If attendance is completely voluntary, then fine.

Somehow, I don't suspect it would be.

[R650R]

Oh no no no, no you don’t, no no no. That’s very naughty Countdown revealing the truth......

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/indus...countdown-says

Couple paragraphs in “its stores (plural) dealing with THOUSANDS of non mask wearers DAILY”

Delta failed to deliver after being overmarketed, people have lots of spare time in rebranded lockdown to read medical stats of what’s happening in other countries... and the massive trucker protests in Canada cant be hidden from public view....

Everyone has had enough....

[pete376403]

Denmark - similar population to NZ numbers wise - has lifted all restrictions WRT covid
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/world/460...rease-in-cases

Most recent covid stats for Denmark: 40,179 new cases yesterday
https://www.google.com/search?q=denm...hrome&ie=UTF-8

[husaberg]

What does it matter what I work out. I'll wait for the law to make its determination and then society to enforce their will. As I said before "I guess one can pick and choose eh.".

Society has free will that's why they voted so strongly against what you perceive to be the correct way to address issues and what is important by such overwhelming numbers
That's why you lost out by over 26000 votes in the last election and scored half the votes you did the election before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mana_(...#2017_election

[FJRider]

Let's ask the Jews.
Or the Uyghurs.
Or the Zeks.
Or the Chams.

Read my comment on comparisons in my last reply to Mashman.

The answer is Freedom.

What was the question again ... ?? But the great NZ UN-Vaccinated mob ... have a dam sight more freedoms than those groups you mention.

Well, let's look at the definition, shall we?

Look up the "Definition" of a "Modern" Prison. Would the "Modern" Concentration camp we are talking of ... be better or worse than a Prison .. ??

Minority group - Check.
Reasons of 'State Security' (read 'National Health') - Check.

Oh the poor minority groups. What makes them special .. ?? Are they expecting the Government to throw a few million $$$ at them. AS IF ...

Just proving the point still. I mean I'll hand it to you, it's one hell of a commitment to support Concentration Camps in order to be on the opposite side of a Debate from me - so Bravo.

As I said ... HEALTH Camps. Misquoting me again.

If attendance is completely voluntary, then fine.

Somehow, I don't suspect it would be.

Suspicious sod aren't you ...

Children got sent to Health camps here in NZ ... they helped thousands of kids. Why cant sick adults get the same treatment .. ??

[FJRider]

It was neither obscure nor insulting. Your choice how to read things.

So ... comparisons between how Nazi Germany treated the Jews ... and the carrying of a Covid passport is not obscure .. ??

And you believe that .. ??

A comparison with Darwins theory and those that are UN-vaccinated could be made too. I bet a few wont like THAT one either ...

My freedoms were taken.

I've lost no freedom. There's no where I can't go now ... I could go before Covid.

The non-vaccinated are being vilified for a lack of patriotism (the posters on here alone are evidence enough).

The vaccinations are supposed to be in the interest of their continued good health (if they were actually healthy to start with) and with the intent to stop (or as least slow) the spread of the virus. I haven't heard of any "Lack of Patriotism" comments. And certainly would not subscribe to that theory.

There might be a few that had to get vaccinated to keep their job ... and were pissed off). It certainly was a requirement for me ... But I'd already had the jabs anyway.

I've been to places where I had to fight to stay alive. A few vaccination jabs are by no means ... any comparison. A few jabs to stay alive is nothing new either.

Whether the jab worked or not, most of you dipshits have turned it into a loyalty contest, proving Goering absolutely bang on the money.

Your comparisons need work.

[mashman]

So ... comparisons between how Nazi Germany treated the Jews ... and the carrying of a Covid passport is not obscure .. ??

And you believe that .. ??

A comparison with Darwins theory and those that are UN-vaccinated could be made too. I bet a few wont like THAT one either ...



I've lost no freedom. There's no where I can't go now ... I could go before Covid.



The vaccinations are supposed to be in the interest of their continued good health (if they were actually healthy to start with) and with the intent to stop (or as least slow) the spread of the virus. I haven't heard of any "Lack of Patriotism" comments. And certainly would not subscribe to that theory.

There might be a few that had to get vaccinated to keep their job ... and were pissed off). It certainly was a requirement for me ... But I'd already had the jabs anyway.

I've been to places where I had to fight to stay alive. A few vaccination jabs are by no means ... any comparison. A few jabs to stay alive is nothing new either.



Your comparisons need work.

The observation I made was more inline with the segregation created by slavery/racism. Thought that much might have been obvious to You... guess not. I would happily compare the German and Jews thing too though, but not with regards to vaccination, more in line with the Goering thing. He led an entire country to conclude that it was ok for the leadership to kill Jews and go about fucking up the world for a while. I'd also add in the Iraq lies etc... as another variety of the same thing......................... Still personally prefer the segregation/slavery/racism angle for illustration purposes though... and if I were a Jew hater, I would have gone with the more apt modern day Israel-Palestine and the passports that non-Jews require to move around chunks of their own country.

You got your freedoms back. You lost them. They were taken from you under exceptionally questionable circumstances and then offered back to you with some slight adjustments. If you had anything remotely scientific to say, then yes, the comparisons would suck ass. The context is fine.

[TheDemonLord]

Read my comment on comparisons in my last reply to Mashman.

What was the question again ... ?? But the great NZ UN-Vaccinated mob ... have a dam sight more freedoms than those groups you mention.

Not if you had your way, which is the point.

Regardless of how you want to spin it - the fact you agreed that Concentration Camps are a good idea for a group you don't like validates my entire point and provides Vindication for all the people who gasped and clutched at their pearls, shrieking 'How dare you'.

And curiously enough all of those posters - They've been awfully quiet on condemning the idea of Concentration Camps - either from the Poll or from your support.

Look up the "Definition" of a "Modern" Prison. Would the "Modern" Concentration camp we are talking of ... be better or worse than a Prison .. ??

Complete Red Herring, but I'll indulge you. A Modern Prison is based not on a Group Identity, but on the Individual. You do something stupid, you go to Prison. Your Race/Gender/Religion/Group Characteristic is not the determining factor.

Oh the poor minority groups. What makes them special .. ?? Are they expecting the Government to throw a few million $$$ at them. AS IF ...

I think if you were to ask most people who are Unvaccinated, they wouldn't want Government money, they would want to be left alone.

As I said ... HEALTH Camps. Misquoting me again.

'Health Camp'
'Re-Education Camp'
'Labour Camp'

You can call it the Sexy Swingers and endless Orgy Camp for all it makes a difference. Still Immoral. Still wrong. Still definitionally a Concentration Camp.

Suspicious sod aren't you ...

Children got sent to Health camps here in NZ ... they helped thousands of kids. Why cant sick adults get the same treatment .. ??

Me? Skeptical and Cynical? Surely not....

The difference is that Children are under the care of Adults who (for the most part, NZ's child abuse stats notwithstanding) are acting in the best interest of the Child and have a direct genetic lineage and vested interest in the wellbeing of said Child, who legally does not have the ability to consent yet.

The State however does not have a Genetic Lineage to me, nor does it have the financial and emotional investment in me that my Parents do and finally, I legally have the ability to Consent.

Finally (speaking of Suspicious) - I noticed that some form of Evidence that I've made any reports about you to the Mods was Lacking. Would you care to issue a retraction?