The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

[FJRider]

I mean, if you've already gone to the hospital for the condition that is killing you...

Where was it said in ANY of the reports that the patients reported to have covid (and died) ... were going to die ANYWAY.

The actual "Underlying medical conditions" (usually not actually mentioned) ... like emphysema which affects breathing ... to the various heart conditions ... (and many other conditions besides) may or may not ... be actually killing the sufferer.

So, if you are 90 and get fataly Stabbed, and being old caused you to die sooner, did old age kill you? Or did the stab wound kill you?

I spoke to my lawyer on that ... the person that stabbed the 90 year old would be charged with murder. Your own words (caused the 90 year old to die sooner) confirms the death WAS due to the stab wound.

Answers to a Defence lawyer, please.

AS above. If you don't believe me ... go stab a 90 year old.

Let me know how you got on. After you get out of jail.

[F5 Dave]

Jesus fuck there you go. Excuses and bullshit from tdl no care and no responsibility for his actions of disinformation.

You are part of the problem.

[TheDemonLord]

Jesus fuck there you go. Excuses and bullshit from tdl no care and no responsibility for his actions of disinformation.

You are part of the problem.

What disinformation?

I've literally quoted Stuff (and you know how much I am loathe to use them as a source), who in turn are quoting the Info released from the Ministry of Health.

The simple fact is, that 2 out of the 5 people explicitly died of something that wasn't Covid 19, yet are being included. Including those 2 people as 'Covid Deaths', when the MoH themselves said they died of an unrelated illness is a flagrant abuse of Stats.

The 3rd was in hospital already for an unrelated Illness - the exact wording was 'Tested positive for Covid' - not died from Covid. Given that they've included people who they shouldn't have already, I'm disinclined to be charitable and say that this 3rd case died from whatever they went into hospital for, not Covid.

Now, I'm sorry if repeating what the Ministry of Health has said is, in your world, 'Disinformation' - Take it up with your Local MP or the Minister for Health.

[TheDemonLord]

Where was it said in ANY of the reports that the patients reported to have covid (and died) ... were going to die ANYWAY.

That's kinda what Palliative Care means...

'Palliative care' is care for a person of any age who has a life-limiting illness.

And the other one outright stated they died of an unrelated illness - I mean sure, kinda got 20/20 hindsight on that one but...

The actual "Underlying medical conditions" (usually not actually mentioned) ... like emphysema which affects breathing ... to the various heart conditions ... (and many other conditions besides) may or may not ... be actually killing the sufferer.

The words used were 'Unrelated Medical Condition'.

Were it something like Asthma or Emphysema (or anything else that could be a co-morbidity), one might conjecture that it wouldn't be referred to as 'Unrelated'.

I spoke to my lawyer on that ... the person that stabbed the 90 year old would be charged with murder. Your own words (caused the 90 year old to die sooner) confirms the death WAS due to the stab wound.

Cool, so it's Died with Covid, not from Covid. Glad we cleared that up.

Just like it's died from a Stabwound and not with a stabwound

[mashman]

On noes Bill Gates, that's misinformation, vaccines that protect were here last year... oh, and sorry that my immune system beat your drugs in the real world ...

And you say the did testing, right?

[pritch]

- why are they being included? We know why - to bump up the Numbers.

There's been a lot of stupid stuff said and written about COVID but that's a strong contender.

Meanwhile back in reality, I think we've lost control of recording numbers in this country, and it doesn't help when the idiot protestors from Wellington attribute their obvious COVID symptoms to imaginary action by the police.

[husaberg]

There's been a lot of stupid stuff said and written about COVID but that's a strong contender.

Meanwhile back in reality, I think we've lost control of recording numbers in this country, and it doesn't help when the idiot protestors from Wellington attribute their obvious COVID symptoms to imaginary action by the police.

So am i correct in assuming he thinks NZ should abandon the way the international community does the numbers to suit A pom IT help desk dude with no medical training who likes to believe in conspiracy theories, As he cant comprehend nor understand they are removed from the numbers after the official cause of death is actually determined? or does he just like t ignore that as it doesnt suit him.
this information has been posted on this site and has been readily available for 3 months. It show's how flimsy his arguments are when he has to keep pushing the same misinformation,. this is one of the reasons he is so ignored on this site.
it was the first thing that came up on google.

Further information on deaths associated with COVID-19
News article
30 November 2021
The Ministry of Health is releasing further information on deaths associated with COVID-19.

COVID-19 deaths includes all cases that died who were classified as an active case of COVID-19 at the time of death. In some of these cases, the underlying cause of death may have been unrelated to COVID-19.

The Ministry’s clinical criteria for reporting a COVID-19 death will continue to be guided by the World Health Organization’s definition for deaths due to COVID-19.

Deaths being investigated by the Coroner will remain under investigation until the Coroner’s finding has been determined. The Ministry will report this information daily on its website. This reflects that it can take some time for the Coroner to determine their findings, as well as formal notification processes carried out by the DHB.

As of 9am 25 November, 41 individuals have died who having COVID-19, and 30 of these deaths are classified as due to COVID-19, one death was not due to COVID-19, and the cause of death of the remaining ten has not been finalised. This data will be updated as privacy provisions allow to ensure personal information, is not personally identifiable.
https://www.health.govt.nz/news-medi...iated-covid-19

[TheDemonLord]

There's been a lot of stupid stuff said and written about COVID but that's a strong contender.

Okay Pritch - riddle me this:

The Ministry of Health says that someone died of an Unrelated Illness (exact quote for 2 of the 5 cases).

Why are they being included in the Covid stats?

Now, in reference to Husabergs giant Spiel:

COVID-19 deaths includes all cases that died who were classified as an active case of COVID-19 at the time of death. In some of these cases, the underlying cause of death may have been unrelated to COVID-19.

Husa may screech 'but we are following process!' - that is a deceptive means of doing it especially in instances where the cause of Death is explicitly known.

Let's be charitable - I'd be fine with including cases where COVID may have been a factor - like someone with Asthma - was it Covid or an Asthma attack that finally sent them on their way - absolutely fine with those being included.

I'd also be fine with maintaining a separate stat for cases which are pending a Coroners report and have that be the primary metric used.

Whereas when you are including people who (again as per the MoH) died of something unrelated - that's Deceptive.

The methodology for reporting ensures that a higher initial figure is produced (one that is alarmist and therefore much more conducive to eliciting the desired response) then it is walked back (which no one ever cares about).

It's like the old Newspaper trick of printing a salacious story on the Front Page, being threatened to be sued, then printing a retraction in the Editors notes at the back of the Paper. People remember the headline, never the retraction.

Meanwhile back in reality, I think we've lost control of recording numbers in this country, and it doesn't help when the idiot protestors from Wellington attribute their obvious COVID symptoms to imaginary action by the police.

Oh no! We've lost control of recording the number of Sniffles.

Oh dear.

Best we all carry on with our lives then.

[TheDemonLord]

So am i correct in assuming he thinks NZ should abandon the way the international community does the numbers to suit A pom IT help desk dude with no medical training who likes to believe in conspiracy theories, As he cant comprehend nor understand they are removed from the numbers after the official cause of death is actually determined? or does he just like t ignore that as it doesnt suit him.
this information has been posted on this site and has been readily available for 3 months. It show's how flimsy his arguments are when he has to keep pushing the same misinformation,. this is one of the reasons he is so ignored on this site.
it was the first thing that came up on google.

If I produced a report to Senior Management based with a big number of how much Profit we made, then quietly changed it after the fact to reflect the actual number - at best I'd be asked to look for another job.

At worst I could be hit with fraud charges for cooking the books.

I may not have 'Medical training' but I've got a number of years of statistical analysis experience, including datasets that millions upon millions of row (so on par with what the Govt is dealing with) - experience which immediately sees that the 'International community standard' is designed in such a way that will have a number of False-Positives, that will be walked back.

In the case of the NZ dataset that was released - that's a false positive rate (by their own admission) of 60%.

Also, given other factors - such as:
- 5 deaths (not 50,000 where you might forgive the DHBs and MoH expediting the process due to the massive volume)
- That they have stated they died of unrelated issues.

It's improper to include them in the stats when the sample size is small and the cause of death is known.

[pritch]

Oh no! We've lost control of recording the number of Sniffles.

Again for the slow ones, many of the protestors are unvaccinated and may have something more serious than sniffles.

If you were actually interested in motorcycles you might have noticed tears in Doha when a team run by the widow of the former principal, who died of COVID, won the race. Some sniffles are serious.

[husaberg]

Again for the slow ones, many of the protestors are unvaccinated and may have something more serious than sniffles.

If you were actually interested in motorcycles you might have noticed tears in Doha when a team run by the widow of the former principal, who died of COVID, won the race. Some sniffles are serious.

February 26: TRUMP

"This is a flu. This is like a flu," the president said in a briefing. "It's a little like a regular flu that we have flu shots for. And we'll essentially have a flu shot for this in a fairly quick manner."

February 26: TRUMP

"The flu, in our country, kills from 25,000 people to 69,000 people a year," Trump said during a Coronavirus Task Force briefing." And, so far, if you look at what we have with the 15 people and their recovery, one is — one is pretty sick but hopefully will recover, but the others are in great shape. But think of that: 25,000 to 69,000." Trump then added, "And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that's a pretty good job we've done.”

March 9: TRUMP

"So last year 37,000 Americans died from the common Flu. It averages between 27,000 and 70,000 per year," the president tweeted shortly before 11 am. "Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on. At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!"


March 24:TRUMP

"We lose thousands and thousands of people a year to the flu. We don't turn the country off," Trump said from the Rose Garden. "And actually, this year we're having a bad flu season. But we lose thousands of people a year to the flu. We never turn the country off. We lose much more than that to automobile accidents… I would love to have the country opened up and just raring to go by Easter."

March 31:TRUMP

By the last day in March, the president had changed his tune. "A lot of people have said, 'Ride it out. Don't do anything, just ride it out and think of it as the flu.' But it's not the flu. It's vicious," Trump declared at a White House Coronavirus Task Force Briefing. "This is not the flu," added Trump, definitively.

Note only 8% of people get the flu each year.

[TheDemonLord]

Again for the slow ones, many of the protestors are unvaccinated and may have something more serious than sniffles.

That 'May' is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting.

But here's the thing: Their Bodies, Their choice. I don't want them to die, but at the same time if they engage in risky behaviour and die from it, my sympathy is somewhat tempered.

Just like if someone wants to pull a Dank Wheelie on a 1000cc Crotch Rocket with no helmet, no leathers and the Kiwi Safety Sandal at 200 kph - if they pull it off - good for them, if they go splat...

If you were actually interested in motorcycles you might have noticed tears in Doha when a team run by the widow of the former principal, who died of COVID, won the race. Some sniffles are serious.

Sure, see the point I made about dearly loved relatives of mine dying from the Flu.

Sniffles can be deadly to the Old, the Immuno-compromised, the Morbidly Obese, Smokers, Alcoholics etc. etc. Yet, miraculously, each year when Sniffle season comes - we get on with it knowing that some people will die as an inevitability either of their own or others freedom.

Same with the Road toll.
Same with DIY accidents.
Same with Swimming.

Each person has the capacity to decide how much Risk they want to take: Don't want to lop your leg off with a Chainsaw? Hire an Arborist.

Worried about dieing during Sniffle Season because you've got a history of Lung/breathing conditions? Take extra precautions.

[FJRider]

That's kinda what Palliative Care means...

So ... what is the life expectancy with someone on "Palliative Care" .. ??

The words used were 'Unrelated Medical Condition'.

Words always used ... or just this one case .. ?? And most medical ailments ARE unrelated to covid. Whats your point on that .. ??

As per the usual clear and concise journalism in NZ ... the actual cause of death is usually still made unclear.

Intentionally probably. In the privacy concerns of the family concerned.

Most of reported deaths (reported as having covid) ... the patients are reported as having had underlying medical conditions.

All deaths as such ... are reported as in the stats as being covid deaths ... it's as simple as that.


You're grasping at straws again ... as per usual ...

Were it something like Asthma or Emphysema (or anything else that could be a co-morbidity), one might conjecture that it wouldn't be referred to as 'Unrelated'.

"Could be" ... ?? more straws being grasped at ...

Cool, so it's Died with Covid, not from Covid. Glad we cleared that up.

IT'S died with covid ... VERY caring of you. If you died of VD ... that's probably how YOUR death would be reported. As an "IT" ..

You'll note I did say ...

(caused the 90 year old to die sooner) confirms the death WAS due to the stab wound.

Comprehension just isn't your strong point ...

Just like it's died from a Stabwound and not with a stabwound

A murder charge is serious. Dying from a stab wound ... received from another person ... is murder.

Your very words ... suggests you believed differently. I doubt even a GOOD Defense lawyer would be able to win that one.

So, if you are 90 and get fataly Stabbed, and being old caused you to die sooner, did old age kill you? Or did the stab wound kill you?

Answers to a Defence lawyer, please.

[TheDemonLord]

So ... what is the life expectancy with someone on "Palliative Care" .. ??

That's not the point, the point is, they aren't going to get better and it's managing their condition until they die.

Words always used ... or just this one case .. ?? And most medical ailments ARE unrelated to covid. Whats your point on that .. ??

As per the usual clear and concise journalism in NZ ... the actual cause of death is usually still made unclear.

Intentionally probably. In the privacy concerns of the family concerned.

Most of reported deaths (reported as having covid) ... the patients are reported as having had underlying medical conditions.

All deaths as such ... are reported as in the stats as being covid deaths ... it's as simple as that.

Two separate issues:

Died from Covid with underlying Medical conditions vs Died with covid due to unrelated Illness.

One I'm more than happy to be included in the stats, the other when they have stated that the cause of death was unrelated to Covid is not acceptable.

"Could be" ... ?? more straws being grasped at ...

I mean... That is how the English Language works...

"He died of injuries related to a Motorcycle crash"
vs
"He died of a Heart attack, which was unrelated to a broken toe he had"

IT'S died with covid ... VERY caring of you. If you died of VD ... that's probably how YOUR death would be reported. As an "IT" ..

So?

When I snuff it (hopefully many years in the future) I'll only exist as my online personae, in the memories of the people that new me and as an 'it' on various Government Databases.

Comprehension just isn't your strong point ...

A murder charge is serious. Dying from a stab wound ... received from another person ... is murder.

Your very words ... suggests you believed differently. I doubt even a GOOD Defense lawyer would be able to win that one.

I know... you're proving my point...

If someone is already dying (such as from a Stab Wound or an illness that put them into Palliative care) - then other factors which might make miniscule differences aren't relevant. a fit 20 year old might take longer to bleed out than a 90 year old, but you still wouldn't say that old age was a factor in their death because it made them die quicker. Nor if someone was a lifelong Smoker would you say that because of that choice, Smoking killed them instead of the Stabwound.

Just like if someone is in Palliative care already dying from something else, you wouldn't say that Covid killed them.

[FJRider]

That's not the point, the point is, they aren't going to get better and it's managing their condition until they die.

It IS the point if they are at risk of catching covid. "Palliative care" ... is care for a person (of any age) who has a life-limiting illness. Palliative care involves supporting and helping the person to live as comfortably and fully as possible (The official description of Palliative care). The usual effect of contracting covid is to cause death sooner. Thus ... covid killed them sooner than they would have without a covid intervention.

Thusly ... died of covid.

Two separate issues:

Died from Covid with underlying Medical conditions vs Died with covid due to unrelated Illness.

As above ... and is my original point ... they would live longer if they didn't catch Covid. The seriousness of those underlying conditions may vary. (I see you didn't try to use the term Unrelated)

Perhaps on occasion ... some of those related to family members on palliative care ... may indeed not mind that much if death does come sooner than expected. Especially if some degree of pain ... or the lack of awareness of their surroundings IS evident with the patient. And especially if some degree of their longevity is expected to be continued with their condition.

Thus ... IF covid IS the cause of an earlier death. Then ... death was because of covid ... just as surely as (you agree) a stab wound could be.

One I'm more than happy to be included in the stats

In the covid death stats ... good to hear ...

the other when they have stated that the cause of death was unrelated to Covid is not acceptable.

As again ... few medical conditions are "Related" to covid.

I meant ... That is how the NZ bureaucracy works ... all the causes of what effected the death are listed ...

Are you aware of what/all the details they put on those death certificates ... even for those "Unrelated to covid" deaths ... ?? YEP ... if they HAD covid ... it's mentioned.

Perhaps ... deaths "Unrelated to covid" means they didn't have covid ... but if they're mentioned in the covid death stat's ... they did have it. Or ... just simply ... covid made no change to their expected/estimated life span.


That's how the NZ bureaucracy works ... ALL the possible causes of death are listed ...

"He died of injuries related to a Motorcycle crash"
vs
"He died of a Heart attack, which was unrelated to a broken toe he had"

Now you're just being stupid. Few die of a broken toe received in a motorcycle crash ... with or without covid. I can't recall any ... Can YOU ... ??

Catching covid is obviously not as as serious (with or without a broken toe due to a motorcycle accident) than a person with a heart condition ... AND covid.

What actual point were you trying to make there ....

So?

When I snuff it (hopefully many years in the future)

More than a few will be hoping for sooner. But thats' just my opinion.

I know... you're proving my point...

Nope ... I was at the doctor's today for the annual checkup. I asked what would be entered on a death certificate ... if death was hastened (not always the case) with/by covid. The reply was ... "Almost certainly Covid would be listed as a cause of death."

If someone is already dying (such as from a Stab Wound or an illness that put them into Palliative care) - then other factors which might make miniscule differences aren't relevant.

Now you claim stab wounds cause palliative care with some patients ... and catch covid too I assume ... this being a covid (related) thread ...

a fit 20 year old might take longer to bleed out than a 90 year old, but you still wouldn't say that old age was a factor in their death because it made them die quicker. Nor if someone was a lifelong Smoker would you say that because of that choice, Smoking killed them instead of the Stabwound.

Now I see you've reversed ALL your claims ...

But ... a fit 20 year old (not on palliative care I assume) would ... and will MOST LIKELY ... SURVIVE A COVID INFECTION.

And ALL smokers WILL die ... Eventually. Many often wishing for death sooner than it actually happens. And more die each year from smoking related ailments ... than ALL listed New Zealand Covid deaths.

Death is a certainty. Nobody escapes THAT simple fact. How soon you die (and how you die) ... can and HAS been an individuals choice since the beginning of time.

Government policy is simply recording the deaths of those with covid as covid related deaths. They sometimes state the cause of death was unrelated to covid. But ... they till put them in the covid death stats though.

Bugger eh ...

Just like if someone is in Palliative care already dying from something else, you wouldn't say that Covid killed them.

As I have already stated (multiple times) what hastens the death is usually listed as ... or added to the list of other ailments that person had as cause (or possible cause) of death. Sometimes actual cause is determined by an autopsy.

With Covid being the topic of the year ... a covid (related) death is usually listed as such.

Such is Government policy. If you do not like that policy ... Bugger ... eh ..!!!


Just be sure to vote in the next election. Have YOUR say.


I personally ... would bet on a Labour landslide re-election.