The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

[TheDemonLord]

Now ya see, you've missed the point completely, and gone straight back to the either/or mentality, as either to be deliberately argumentative or through ignorance.

We'll see...

Were these people already in hospital, already in the throes of death, and subsequently contracted covid?

You tell me:

'In palliative care, died from unrelated illness'
'In hospital for unrelated illness, that they died from'

So yeah - already in hospital, already in the throes of death would be a pretty accurate summation based on what the MoH said

Did they present at hospital with covid, and would they or would they not have been at hospital if they hadn't contracted covid?

As per above.

For example: If someone had a long standing respiratory condition which they have successfully managed for a long time, then contracts covid which tips them over the edge and they end up in hospital and die, is their existing illness that kills them or covid. Is it possible that it's a combination of both?

Absolutely no issue with that, as I said if it was a related issue, then fine.

To go back to the stabbing example: If someone is stabbed in the hand for cheating at cards, and is a hemophiliac and bleeds to death, what is the cause of death? Is being stabbed the only cause, even though most other people would survive the same injury? Or is their cause of death entirely hemophilia, and the stabbing is irrelevant as they would have bled to death at some point anyway? Or could it be an unlucky coincidence, and both are contributing factors?

Sounds like you are saying (in that case) they died from a related and not unrelated issue

[TheDemonLord]

George F.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd

You entirely missed the point...

[TheDemonLord]

TRY THIS ...

George Floyd didn't die of covid.

Okay - we'll keep that for later...

AND ... Changing the subject doesn't help your cause.

Oh, we'll see

Police involved in that particular incident got more than a severe reprimand. Justice was carried out in a court of law.

A cop kneeling on your throat (I'd pay $$$ to see that) bears no resemblance (in principle or in practice) to a person that is (possibly) elderly ... and with enough medical issues ... For them to be seen as putting their lives in enough danger ... their own doctors have considered them to be dying.

Even WITHOUT/BEFORE being infected with Covid.

Okay, so definitively, if someone has a condition where they are struggling to breath (Asthma, Cop on their neck etc.) and they also have Covid, which aggravates their ability to breath - you've definitively said that they didn't die of Covid... Interesting.

Even with their (guessed by doctors) time frame of life left for them prior to being infected with covid (by sloppy/incorrect health measures taken by "Health" staff in their place of residence) ... of maybe a year or so at best .. a covid infection might halve that. Maybe even LESS time than that (individual cases DO vary in length of remaining lifespans).

It's already known that hospital patients have died sooner than predicted due to a covid infection. YET ... YOU try to claim that it WASN'T covid that killed them. Dying a few months EARLIER was probably just a coincidence .. right .. ?? BUT ... If I am right ... ALL your bullshit claims and assertions would be THEN seen as TOTAL BULLSHIT.

So which is it?

This is why I changed the subject, cause I knew you'd bite:

If a shortening of predicted Lifespan caused by COVID (as you have asserted above) is sufficient to class someone as dying OF COVID, then in the same breath (Pun fully intended) I get to say that George Floyd as per your reasoning died of Covid, not the cop on his neck.

If however, you wish to concede to me that someone with a pre-existing condition that was already killing them (such as being in Palliative care, or going to hospital for the illness that killed them, or a cop on their neck) died of that thing and NOT Covid, even if the presence of Covid MIGHT (and that's your word, not mine and it's doing some very heavy lifting) have decreased their expected lifespan by Months or Minutes.

Catch-22. And since you have so eloquently articulated both sides of the argument, now you have to pick one.

Either you accept that the way COVID stats are reported are accurate, and therefore as per your line of logic, it's entirely correct to say George Floyd died of COVID OR
You accept that the way the stats are reported (when the cause of death is known not to be COVID) is Bullshit - which was my point all along.

[mashman]

Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial - An investigation for the BMJ.... might explain a few things with regards to testing v's outcomes in reality reality.

"The next morning, 25 September 2020, Jackson called the FDA to warn about unsound practices in Pfizer’s clinical trial at Ventavia. She then reported her concerns in an email to the agency. In the afternoon Ventavia fired Jackson—deemed “not a good fit,” according to her separation letter."

"In August this year, after the full approval of Pfizer’s vaccine, the FDA published a summary of its inspections of the company’s pivotal trial. Nine of the trial’s 153 sites were inspected. Ventavia’s sites were not listed among the nine, and no inspections of sites where adults were recruited took place in the eight months after the December 2020 emergency authorisation. The FDA’s inspection officer noted: “The data integrity and verification portion of the BIMO [bioresearch monitoring] inspections were limited because the study was ongoing, and the data required for verification and comparison were not yet available to the IND [investigational new drug].”"

[FJRider]

Okay - we'll keep that for later...



Oh, we'll see

Off topic posts end up you know where ... feel free to try. Pink Is probably your favorite colour.

Okay, so definitively, if someone has a condition where they are struggling to breath (Asthma, Cop on their neck etc.) and they also have Covid, which aggravates their ability to breath - you've definitively said that they didn't die of Covid... Interesting.

You have memory issues too ... What I DID SAY ... was that if covid caused them to die sooner than they would have without catching covid ... then covid was their cause of death. Without covid ... they would have lived longer.

... then in the same breath (Pun fully intended) I get to say that George Floyd as per your reasoning died of Covid, not the cop on his neck.

George Floyd didn't have covid. That you did agree with as above.

However way you chose to word it ... simply put ... FLOYD DIDN'T HAVE COVID. Why argue he could or did .. ??

If however, you wish to concede to me that someone with a pre-existing condition that was already killing them (such as being in Palliative care, or going to hospital for the illness that killed them, or a cop on their neck) died of that thing and NOT Covid, even if the presence of Covid MIGHT (and that's your word, not mine and it's doing some very heavy lifting) have decreased their expected lifespan by Months or Minutes.

Floyd was killed by a cop. NOT COVID. NO comparison can be made in that regard. Are you trying to rewrite history now ... ??

For those on palliative care ... and contract covid ... and if covid does not change the expected death time frame their doctors ... covid wasn't the cause of their death. It WAS the cause if it shortens the expected death time frame. And I have stated all that previously.

Catch-22. And since you have so eloquently articulated both sides of the argument, now you have to pick one.

Catch 22 ... not in the least.

Either you accept that the way COVID stats are reported are accurate, and therefore as per your line of logic, it's entirely correct to say George Floyd died of COVID OR

Covid stats report that those that die WITH covid ... are covid victims. I do not agree with that policy ... but that is how they record the deaths as (Covid deaths).

You accept that the way the stats are reported (when the cause of death is known not to be COVID) is Bullshit - which was my point all along.

As above ... if the patient HAD covid and later died ... their deaths are then recorded as being covid deaths. That seems to be Government policy to do so.

What I believe doesn't ... (and will not) change Government policy.

Bugger eh .. !!

[TheDemonLord]

You have memory issues too ... What I DID SAY ... was that if covid caused them to die sooner than they would have without catching covid ... then covid was their cause of death. Without covid ... they would have lived longer.

Just like George

George Floyd didn't have covid. That you did agree with as above.

However way you chose to word it ... simply put ... FLOYD DIDN'T HAVE COVID. Why argue he could or did .. ??

That's not what George said, or the Autopsy:

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-up...or-coronavirus

Floyd was killed by a cop. NOT COVID. NO comparison can be made in that regard. Are you trying to rewrite history now ... ??

But you just said: "if covid caused them to die sooner than they would have without catching covid ... then covid was their cause of death.".

If having Covid caused George to have, I dunno, trouble breathing - and he would have lived longer than without covid, then as per your line above - He died of Covid.

I'm not trying to re-write history, I'm ridiculing your argument - by taking it to it's logical extreme.

For those on palliative care ... and contract covid ... and if covid does not change the expected death time frame their doctors ... covid wasn't the cause of their death. It WAS the cause if it shortens the expected death time frame. And I have stated all that previously.

Expected Death Time?

"Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen, the Grim Reaper express will be departing Platform 9 at 10:15. Will the Passengers scheduled for this service, please get ready to die"

Didn't realise that they had gotten so accurate...

Covid stats report that those that die WITH covid ... are covid victims. I do not agree with that policy ... but that is how they record the deaths as (Covid deaths).

And there we have it - why do you not agree with that Policy? Is it because you know (as do I) that it's not right.

Which was my argument all along.

Now for the big shocker - I see the point your making and I partially agree with it, that if Covid is/was shown to be a significant factor in their death, then okay - I can accept it as a Covid death. See my points about people with Asthma or other related conditions

However, if someone is already dying in Palliative care, whether or not Covid was the straw that broke the camels back, they were already dying - it wasn't the major factor. Just like George, it wasn't a major factor.

To include those deaths as Covid deaths is wrong, everyone knows it's wrong - and merely appealing to authority (or government policy in this case) doesn't change it's wrong-ness.

Getting you to admit that you don't agree with the Policy (because the Policy is stupid) was the point all along.

[FJRider]

Just like George

My mistake. My memory issues ...

So ... by my reasoning then ... he died by cop. NOT covid ... as the cop(s) made him die sooner than than he should have. Reasoning I have used and stated all along. If your opinion on that point differs ... feel free to post the quote where I said differently.

Funnily enough ... had it been in New Zealand (possibly in the USA too ... it could have been recorded as a covid death.

But as the cops were charged with murder ... probably not.

That's not what George said, or the Autopsy:

Apparently ...

But you just said: "if covid caused them to die sooner than they would have without catching covid ... then covid was their cause of death.".

The good news is though ... I WAS RIGHT. The cop killed Floyd. Covid wasn't the cause of his death. The COP caused him to die sooner than he was expected too ... even WITH him having covid. And even YOU can't deny THAT.

I wonder if the cops were tested for covid .. ??

AS per my original (and continued) argument ... what causes you to die sooner than expected ... whatever medical conditions and/or viruses they may have.

If having Covid caused George to have, I dunno, trouble breathing - and he would have lived longer than without covid, then as per your line above - He died of Covid.

As per my claim your comprehension skills are lacking ... THAT very line PROVES me 100% correct. What kills them quicker (obviously NOT always covid) is the cause of death. In this case ... as I have always said ... Floyd died by cop(s).

I'm not trying to re-write history, I'm ridiculing your argument - by taking it to it's logical extreme.

I ALWAYS ridicule YOUR argument. It's expected. By me at least. Even if it's near the truth (sometimes you get lucky).

However you have actually PROVED my ORIGINAL point .. what causes a person (even YOU) to die sooner ... should be recorded as the actual cause of death. As the cops were charged with murder ... that his death was caused by cop ... that most likely would be how it was recorded. But in official lingo.

Expected Death Time?

"Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen, the Grim Reaper express will be departing Platform 9 at 10:15. Will the Passengers scheduled for this service, please get ready to die"

Didn't realise that they had gotten so accurate...

Medical Doctors Guesstimation ... can be surprisingly accurate. Depending on the conditions the patient is suffering from.

And there we have it - why do you not agree with that Policy? Is it because you know (as do I) that it's not right.

Which was my argument all along.

If you recall my post earlier ... regarding the deciding factor in actual causes of death ... you might recall ... I stated what actually causes you to die SOONER is the cause of death. Be it from covid or from a Cop.

OFFICIAL POLICY differs from that. Dying with covid means being recorded as a covid death in the stats.

Anybody can gather a whole heap of numbers to (try to) prove a point. And depending on the point you want to prove ... what system of numbers you use.

Now for the big shocker - I see the point your making and I partially agree with it, that if Covid is/was shown to be a significant factor in their death, then okay - I can accept it as a Covid death. See my points about people with Asthma or other related conditions

My stance is ... if something (be it a cop/covid/ or a cutie with a knife fetish ... kills you sooner than is expected with your present medical condition ... that's what you should have on record as cause of death.

Too simple ... ??

However, if someone is already dying in Palliative care, whether or not Covid was the straw that broke the camels back, they were already dying - it wasn't the major factor. Just like George, it wasn't a major factor.

Aside from the fact that Floyd didn't die OF covid ... and covid wouldn't even feature on his death certificate. He may well have even survived a covid infection. I have seen no claims he WOULD have died from covid.

To include those deaths as Covid deaths is wrong, everyone knows it's wrong - and merely appealing to authority (or government policy in this case) doesn't change it's wrong-ness.

Getting you to admit that you don't agree with the Policy (because the Policy is stupid) was the point all along.

Aside from being official policy ... and if you read my posts regarding the bit about what kills you quicker ... you might see that I actually agree with that. I merely stated that Government policy was to record deaths with covid as being recorded as a covid death.

That you FAILED to grasp that single point ... lead me to believe that YOUR comprehension skills are lacking.

And time and time again ... you prove me right on THAT single point.

Nice one slim ...

[TheDemonLord]

My mistake. My memory issues ...

So ... by my reasoning then ... he died by cop. NOT covid ... as the cop(s) made him die sooner than than he should have. Reasoning I have used and stated all along. If your opinion on that point differs ... feel free to post the quote where I said differently.

Funnily enough ... had it been in New Zealand (possibly in the USA too ... it could have been recorded as a covid death.

But as the cops were charged with murder ... probably not.

Okay - Define 'Sooner' - because you keep saying sooner, but then you make an argument in both directions. And this is what this contention revolves around.

The whole point of bringing George Floyd was to highlight a real world situation (so not a Hypothetical) where 'dying sooner due to Covid therefore died from Covid' could be said, but is patently stupid - in order to demonstrate how patently stupid it was to include 3 out of the 5 deaths (on the info provided).

This line:

What kills them quicker (obviously NOT always covid) is the cause of death

Is probably closest to what I'd agree with, however we have to put some context in:

If you have a condition that you are expected to die from in 6 months, you test positive from Covid and Died in 2 months - which killed you quicker? Covid or the Condition?

You might say 'well, the disease was expected to kill them in 6, but the disease killed them in 2 - so obviously they died from Covid', whereas I'd say if they are in their 40s, with a life expectancy of 81, and the Disease is killing them at 42 - which killed them sooner? The disease that shortened their expected life span by 4 months or 40 years?

And I said I can accept a degree of nuance- but I draw the line at terminal pre-existing conditions being included. If you have a history of Heart trouble and go into hospital for a Heart issue and die of said issue - I can accept that the presence of Covid in your body probably doesn't do you any favors - but that is dying with Covid, not from Covid.

Same with being in palliative care - at that point, it's fair to say that whatever caused you to be in that position has had MUCH more of an impact on your long-term health prospects than Covid has.

[FJRider]

Okay - Define 'Sooner' - because you keep saying sooner, but then you make an argument in both directions. And this is what this contention revolves around.

Definition of sooner: in or after a shorter time.

Definition of later: comparative of late (in or after a longer time).

I always prefer sooner rather than later ... but that's just me ...


Your question proves English IS your second language ... if you don't understand the meaning of the (English) word sooner.

The whole point of bringing George Floyd was to highlight a real world situation (so not a Hypothetical) where 'dying sooner due to Covid therefore died from Covid' could be said, My point exactly.

Newsflash ...

Floyd was killed by a cop. He died sooner than he otherwise would have. Even WITH him having covid. As I said previously ... he may well would have survived a covid infection.

The families that had a relative die from covid might disagree with your assertations ... if they died SOONER than they otherwise were expected to. With whatever other issues they may have had ... if they died sooner due to a covid infection ... then covid killed them. Even if the time period was a month or a week SOONER than was expected they would die ... covid shortened their life.

If you have a condition that you are expected to die from in 6 months, you test positive from Covid and Died in 2 months - which killed you quicker? Covid or the Condition?

I don't have ANY such condition. As per my last RAT test .. I'm still covid free (I guess the masks work ).

You might say 'well, the disease was expected to kill them in 6, but the disease killed them in 2 - so obviously they died from Covid'

What disease did they have .. ??

And I said I can accept a degree of nuance- but I draw the line at terminal pre-existing conditions being included.

I know personally know more than a few that were supposed to die before adulthood. Instead they died of old age.

Personally ... I'd fight tooth and nail for a few weeks extra of life. Fat useless pricks probably wouldn't ... THEY wouldn't see the point of making ANY extra effort.

With being in palliative care ... at that point where you've become unaware of your surroundings ... it's fair to say that whatever caused you to be in that position ... probably will have MUCH more of an impact on your long-term health prospects than Covid would ever have.

But ... if it shortens your life ...

[FJRider]

'In palliative care, died from unrelated illness'

So yeah - already in hospital, already in the throes of death would be a pretty accurate summation based on what the MoH said

For those that stupidly believe you know what you are talking about.

This is obviously Including YOU.



Palliative care is medical care for people with serious or terminal illnesses.


It is often confused with end of life care (obviously you ARE one that IS confused).


These are two different types of care ... but they have some similar qualities.


Those receiving palliative care does not always mean that they will not get better ... or that they WILL die.

[TheDemonLord]

For those that stupidly believe you know what you are talking about.

This is obviously Including YOU.

Palliative care is medical care for people with serious or terminal illnesses.

It is often confused with end of life care (obviously you ARE one that IS confused).

These are two different types of care ... but they have some similar qualities.

Those receiving palliative care does not always mean that they will not get better ... or that they WILL die.

Does not always - sure.

but...

When you are in palliative care for a condition, and then die of that condition - I think it's fairly safe to say... The condition was Terminal.

And for bonus points - Our Ministry of Health defines it as:

'Palliative care' is care for a person of any age who has a life-limiting illness.

Turns out I DID know what I was talking about, afterall...

[TheDemonLord]

Definition of sooner: in or after a shorter time.

Definition of later: comparative of late (in or after a longer time).

I always prefer sooner rather than later ... but that's just me ...

Your question proves English IS your second language ... if you don't understand the meaning of the (English) word sooner.

Okay - let's go with your definition, see how it goes:

Floyd was killed by a cop. He died sooner than he otherwise would have. Even WITH him having covid. As I said previously ... he may well would have survived a covid infection.

Right, but then you say....

if they died SOONER than they otherwise were expected to. With whatever other issues they may have had ... if they died sooner due to a covid infection ... then covid killed them.

Hmmmmmm...

"George Floyd died SOONER than he otherwise was expected to. With whatever other issues he may have had ... if he died sooner due to a covid infection ... then covid killed George Floyd."

And that is using your definition of Sooner. A perfect substitution, that is logically internally consistent and fits the real world facts - based on your own argument.

Therein lies the catch.

Even if the time period was a month or a week SOONER than was expected they would die ... covid shortened their life.

a Minute, a Month, a Week - it doesn't really matter, if they were already dying of something else - then that something else is to blame.

[FJRider]

Does not always - sure.

As I said ...

Those receiving palliative care does not always mean that they will not get better ... or that they WILL die.


Glad you agree.

[FJRider]

Okay - let's go with your definition, see how it goes

You will recall ... Floyd died SOONER than even HE expected ... due to a cop kneeling on his throat.

Covid played NO part in his death.



Which part of that do you not understand ... ???

Cause of his death was a cop kneeling on his throat.

[FJRider]

When you are in palliative care for a condition, and then die of that condition - I think it's fairly safe to say... The condition was Terminal.

And to ALL those healthy ... hearty ... and happy .... Ponder on this.



Life is Terminal. You won't get out of it alive.



You will die of something.



Possibly ... a lot earlier than you might have expected.



Have a great day ...