The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

[TheDemonLord]

You will recall ... Floyd died SOONER than even HE expected ... due to a cop kneeling on his throat.

Or Covid, as per your line of assertion...

Covid played NO part in his death.

Struggling to breath has no relation to Covid? That's news...

Which part of that do you not understand ... ???

Cause of his death was a cop kneeling on his throat.

I understand that you are trying to have it both ways, and when I'm deliberately parodying it, you're getting flustered to the point where you reply multiple times.

Sooner - as you've used it, doesn't work. Because as above, I can substitute something I know to be false, using your wording and have it be internally consistent and true to the facts.

Therefore, saying if something made you die sooner, it was the cause of death isn't right.

Now, if we replace Sooner with Significant, then it's a lot closer to reality - because I can't say that Covid was significant in George Floyd's death, the cop on the neck was.
And if someone is in dying in palliative care (which, as per MoH is for 'Life Limiting illnesses' - that's Terminal Illnesses) and they die, in palliative care for that same condition, I get to say that Covid wasn't a significant factor and therefore calling it a 'Covid Death' (regardless of the appeal to authority) is incorrect.

[FJRider]

Or Covid, as per your line of assertion...

Please quote the post I claimed Floyd died from anything other than than a cop on his throat.

Actually ... I have mistakenly said he DIDN'T have covid. And you may recall correcting me on that.

Struggling to breath has no relation to Covid? That's news...

It IS hard to breath with a cop kneeling on your throat ...

Therefore, saying if something made you die sooner, it was the cause of death isn't right.

I think the cop definitely made Floyd die sooner than even the cop would have liked. Which is why murder charges were laid against them.

Now, if we replace Sooner with Significant, then it's a lot closer to reality -

With the content of your posts to date ... today's one's especially ... it's apparent you have no grasp whatsoever of reality. Thus ... hardly qualified to comment on what reality is.

And if someone is in dying in palliative care (which, as per MoH is for 'Life Limiting illnesses' - that's Terminal Illnesses) and they die, in palliative care for that same condition, I get to say that Covid wasn't a significant factor and therefore calling it a 'Covid Death' (regardless of the appeal to authority) is incorrect.

Each case of Palliative care will vary to some degree with other cases of palliative care. ANY person that was in Palliative care ... and died of (or with) covid ... unless YOU are personally aware of what patients actual health symptoms (and severity) were prior to ... and after contracting covid ... you are unqualified to comment as to how serious their medical condition was. Or decide if covid killed them (or not).



But (apparently) YOU know ... even without reading the death certificate.


Clairvoyant are you ... ??


Personally ... I think you're running out of straws to grasp ... so you try to use the same one.

It's not working ..

[TheDemonLord]

Please quote the post I claimed Floyd died from anything other than than a cop on his throat.

Actually ... I have mistakenly said he DIDN'T have covid. And you may recall correcting me on that.

It IS hard to breath with a cop kneeling on your throat ...

I think the cop definitely made Floyd die sooner than even the cop would have liked. Which is why murder charges were laid against them.

With the content of your posts to date ... today's one's especially ... it's apparent you have no grasp whatsoever of reality. Thus ... hardly qualified to comment on what reality is.

I've never said that you claimed George died of anything other than a Cop.

I've said that your reasoning as to what constitutes dying sooner, therefore dying of can be used to accurately say that George died of Covid. Something we both agree is patently not true.

Therefore your reasoning as to dying sooner must also be patently not true.

You walked it back a few posts ago saying that you disagreed with how the stats were collected, but then doubled down on your usage of 'Sooner'. I even gave you an out to acknowledge that whilst some factors may result in someone dying sooner, they are not a significant factor and therefore shouldn't be considered as 'dying of' - but you keep pressing this, so I keep parodying it.

Each case of Palliative care will vary to some degree with other cases of palliative care. ANY person that was in Palliative care ... and died of (or with) covid ... unless YOU are personally aware of what patients actual health symptoms (and severity) were prior to ... and after contracting covid ... you are unqualified to comment as to how serious their medical condition was. Or decide if covid killed them (or not).

There's a number of reasonable inferences we can make, based on the info that is known:

1: The person was in Palliative Care - which means in NZ, they had 'A Life Limiting Illness', AKA Terminal Illness - they are Dying.
2: The person died in Palliative Care from that Illness - which means we an infer that is was serious enough to, y'know, kill them (although without them dying, their existence in Palliative care given point one would also allow us to infer their condition was 'serious')
3: The person's illness (and therefore Death) was described as 'unrelated' - which means... not related to Covid.

At which point, even if the presence of Covid shortened their already shortened lifespan (which is something I'm happy to accept), it was not the major factor in their death. They were already dying, of an illness, that eventually killed them, that wasn't Covid.

And based on this - calling them 'A Covid Death' - even if it 'fits the process', is silly.

Just as silly as saying George died of Covid, not a cop.

That of the 5 'Covid Deaths', only 2 of them (based on the info released) could be actual Covid deaths is my issue.

But (apparently) YOU know ... even without reading the death certificate.
Clairvoyant are you ... ??
Personally ... I think you're running out of straws to grasp ... so you try to use the same one.
It's not working ..

I don't need to clutch at straws, they've already told us they died of their unrelated terminal illness...

[Stylo]

I've never said that you claimed George died of anything other than a Cop.

I've said that your reasoning as to what constitutes dying sooner, therefore dying of can be used to accurately say that George died of Covid. Something we both agree is patently not true.

Therefore your reasoning as to dying sooner must also be patently not true.

You walked it back a few posts ago saying that you disagreed with how the stats were collected, but then doubled down on your usage of 'Sooner'. I even gave you an out to acknowledge that whilst some factors may result in someone dying sooner, they are not a significant factor and therefore shouldn't be considered as 'dying of' - but you keep pressing this, so I keep parodying it.



There's a number of reasonable inferences we can make, based on the info that is known:

1: The person was in Palliative Care - which means in NZ, they had 'A Life Limiting Illness', AKA Terminal Illness - they are Dying.
2: The person died in Palliative Care from that Illness - which means we an infer that is was serious enough to, y'know, kill them (although without them dying, their existence in Palliative care given point one would also allow us to infer their condition was 'serious')
3: The person's illness (and therefore Death) was described as 'unrelated' - which means... not related to Covid.

At which point, even if the presence of Covid shortened their already shortened lifespan (which is something I'm happy to accept), it was not the major factor in their death. They were already dying, of an illness, that eventually killed them, that wasn't Covid.

And based on this - calling them 'A Covid Death' - even if it 'fits the process', is silly.

Just as silly as saying George died of Covid, not a cop.

That of the 5 'Covid Deaths', only 2 of them (based on the info released) could be actual Covid deaths is my issue.



I don't need to clutch at straws, they've already told us they died of their unrelated terminal illness...

Please tell me you're not involved in the medical profession .

If so, you need to be struck off the registar. It's not so much what you have to say when replying but surely you can reply in less words than you use. We can hear your indefensible argument in a paragraph. Or two.

Await your 26 line reply. It'll be as implausible as every one before that.

Stop digging. You're deep enough. What's the view like from down there ?

[pete376403]

Its all going to change anyway:
The number of deaths announced today was due to changes to the reporting of Covid-related deaths, Bloomfield said.

From today, there would be a dual reporting approach.

They will report different categories:

• Number of people who died within 28 days of positive Covid-19 test;
• Number of people whose official cause of death was determined as Covid;
• Number of people where Covid was contributing factor, but not the cause;
• People who died within 28 days of positive Covid test, but cause has yet to be determined.

The total number of Covid deaths to date is 91, Bloomfield said.

[TheDemonLord]

Its all going to change anyway:
The number of deaths announced today was due to changes to the reporting of Covid-related deaths, Bloomfield said.

From today, there would be a dual reporting approach.

They will report different categories:

• Number of people who died within 28 days of positive Covid-19 test;
• Number of people whose official cause of death was determined as Covid;
• Number of people where Covid was contributing factor, but not the cause;
• People who died within 28 days of positive Covid test, but cause has yet to be determined.

The total number of Covid deaths to date is 91, Bloomfield said.

Well Well Well, would you look at that?

It seems I'm not the only one who has been pointing out that the way the Covid stats were collected were deceptive, and mysteriously after the most recently announced 'Covid Deaths', the Government has suddenly changed their reporting.

One might look at the timing (less than a week) and conjecture some form of Link...

So much for just being an IT professional, an Internet Troll, a Spreader of Misinformation and every other insult that was hurled my way.

I could Gloat. And oh how I am tempted to gloat as once again, I've been vindicated by subsequent Government Backtracking/Pivots.... Especially with all the venom and vitriol that was thrown... I could Gloat....

But, I won't.

[FJRider]

I've said that your reasoning as to what constitutes dying sooner, therefore dying of can be used to accurately say that George died of Covid. Something we both agree is patently not true.

Actually ... I said what kills you sooner is usually the cause of death. You're getting all bitter and twisted because you forgot that bit.

Hint ... stay off the drugs. They appear to have scrambled your brain.

And there are plenty of posts of mine ... stating exactly as above. You even argued the point.

Even if the presence of Covid shortened their already shortened lifespan (which is something I'm happy to accept), it was not the major factor in their death. They were already dying, of an illness, that eventually killed them, that wasn't Covid.

And based on this - calling them 'A Covid Death' - even if it 'fits the process', is silly.

Died an earlier death from covid ... a covid death.

Too simple ... even for you.


But we both know Government policy on the reporting of covid deaths. So ... I guess we're BOTH wrong. "Officially" ...

That of the 5 'Covid Deaths', only 2 of them (based on the info released) could be actual Covid deaths is my issue.

There were more than 5 covid deaths in nz.

I don't need to clutch at straws, they've already told us they died of their unrelated terminal illness...

You're dying of a terminal illness ... not covid I hope.

[FJRider]

... So much for just being an IT professional, an Internet Troll, a Spreader of Misinformation and every other insult that was hurled my way.

Panic not ... rest assured the insults WILL continue.

Regardless of topic or truth.


It's the KB way ...

[TheDemonLord]

Panic not ... rest assured the insults WILL continue.

Regardless of topic or truth.


It's the KB way ...

I wouldn't have it any other way.

[mashman]

Grand Jury | Day 2... only 45 minutes in and it's funny hearing a former GCHQ officer (shit title given that which he relates) outline information that Akzle was talking about all those years ago as absolute Gospel. The first 40 minutes are an interesting watch if you can handle history from a GCHQ perspective...

[pritch]

Well Well Well, would you look at that?

It seems I'm not the only one who has been pointing out that the way the Covid stats were collected were deceptive, and mysteriously after the most recently announced 'Covid Deaths', the Government has suddenly changed their reporting.

One might look at the timing (less than a week) and conjecture some form of Link...

So much for just being an IT professional, an Internet Troll, a Spreader of Misinformation and every other insult that was hurled my way.

I could Gloat. And oh how I am tempted to gloat as once again, I've been vindicated by subsequent Government Backtracking/Pivots.... Especially with all the venom and vitriol that was thrown... I could Gloat....

But, I won't.

You said previously that they were trying to boost the numbers and that was when our national death toll was about sixty which was patently absurd. Obviously this new system makes the numbers higher than when you thought they were being boosted. You were due zero kudos then and zero now, you have nothing to gloat about.

[TheDemonLord]

You said previously that they were trying to boost the numbers and that was when our national death toll was about sixty which was patently absurd.

See, if the number of Deaths were significant, I might be charitable and say that a few statistical errors are to be expected.
If the number of false-positive deaths weren't a statistically significant number (3 out of 5)

And perhaps most egregiously - and this is where I give absolutely no charitable explanation and ascribe it directly to Malice:

The numbers and statements released were 5 lines that anyone with any form of analytical thinking could have seen, reviewed and corrected, knowing that what was being reported was wrong.

Everyone went along with it, despite the glaringly obvious - all saying that the Emperors' new Clothes were lovely. If it was say 100, I could perhaps forgive it being lost in the noise or overlooked, but it was 5.

Obviously this new system makes the numbers higher than when you thought they were being boosted.

Depends which Metric - Some of them will see an increase, the 4th metric is closest to what the old reporting system is/was and will likely remain unchanged. The first metric will likely see an increase, the third will see an increase - but the one that is most important - where Covid was determined as THE cause of Death, that will decrease (not by much at this stage as most of the Covid deaths have had a Coroner review and been retroactively correctly classified)

You were due zero kudos then and zero now, you have nothing to gloat about.

Right, Right....

I said that the way the Government stats are reported is misleading and wrong
Everyone says I'm wrong.
Government changes the way it's stats are reported, factoring in the very issues that I specifically raised, less than a week later
Pritch: "Nope, nothing to see here, nope, absolutely not. No No"
Denial isn't a river in Egypt

[FJRider]

See, if the number of Deaths were significant, I might be charitable and say that a few statistical errors are to be expected.

WHAT has really CHANGED with the current system of "Recording" death numbers ... ??

The "NEW" system you seem happier about.


ie: The use of statistics. (The name/method YOU continue to refer to the Government reporting of Covid deaths as)

noun

The practice or science of collecting and analyzing numerical data in large quantities, especially for the purpose of inferring proportions in a whole from those in a representative sample.

If you continue to refer to the reported Covid death numbers as Statistics ... some error is expected.

BUT ... if it is only ACTUAL Covid deaths that are are being recorded ... then statistics (as such) play no part in the death count. DEATH from covid numbers should be known ... and recorded as such.


If they cannot attribute actual cause of death ... then nothing has changed much from the original "Cause of death" reporting (ie: Died with Covid).
Except (seemingly) now the reported cases as (confirmed) cause of death from Covid has been greatly reduced.

For example ...

- Number of people who died within 28 days of positive Covid-19 test ... Did they die with, or of Covid
- Number of people whose official cause of death was determined as Covid ... Confirmed death due to Covid
- Number of people where Covid was contributing factor, but not the cause ... Confirmed death not due to Covid
- People who died within 28 days of positive Covid test, but cause has yet to be determined ... Cause of death not confirmed

So ... are the Government reporting FACTS (actual death numbers of those due to Covid) or just using a Statistical system (fudging the numbers to hide (or reveal ??) actual death numbers that were due to Covid)


Is the "NEW" reporting system really any better than before .. ??

Or was the previous system (potentially) just scaremongering .. ??

[TheDemonLord]

Is the "NEW" reporting system really any better than before .. ??

Or was the previous system (potentially) just scaremongering .. ??

The differentiation between those that have died with a Positive test (old system) and those that definitively died from Covid and those that died where Covid was a contributing factor is a really good move.

I personally would like a 5th category (which you can kind of imply from the new dataset, but I'd like it explicitly recorded):

- Those that died within 28 days of a Positive Covid test, but cause of Death found that Covid was not a contributing factor (or not a significant contributing factor).

The previous system, if I give it some due credence is a quick and dirty way when you have a brand new pathogen that people are dying from and you need to get stats in short order. However it should be used with caution and be discarded as soon as better reporting info becomes available as you run the risk of creating a positive feedback loop:

Stats say more people are dying, therefore we need more testing > More testing leads to more positive results within 28 days of death, therefore more people are dying > Even More people are dying!! We need more testing! etc. etc.

Not to mention as you say the alarmist reporting (if it bleeds, it leads...)

[FJRider]

I personally would like a 5th category (which you can kind of imply from the new dataset, but I'd like it explicitly recorded):

- Those that died within 28 days of a Positive Covid test, but cause of Death found that Covid was not a contributing factor (or not a significant contributing factor).

I doubt that will happen. Especially if underlying medical conditions were involved.

If an autopsy is required to confirm cause of death ... the family may not consent to one being carried out.