The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

[F5 Dave]

I see chch is facing the “threat” of a snap lockdown over a handful of cases at a time when they been raving about how good si vax rate is....

Let’s think for a minute about airborne transmission.... how much virus particles does it take to infect another person?
Does anyone know?
Does the govt know?
How fast does your immune system work, either natural or immunised, how fast do those immune cells eat/destroy the virus?
Given how long the body takes to deal with most normal Illnesses id hazard a guess it’s not that fast....
Given all this fancy genomic tracking of who got infected where, surely by now the govt would have HARD evidence to show the UNvaccinayed spread the virus. Yes there are more of them in hospital but who did they catch it from?
That’s all they need to do is show the data instead of threatening people’s freedoms.
Remember we were told the virus can live on a petrol pump handle (despite all those benzene fumes) and last time I checked you can’t vaccine a petrol pump.

See despite my working in the tech industry, I understand that I am way too ignorant to make sensible use of exta data to "Make up my mind" "and Do my own Research ". Most people are. By far the majority. And especially people like you who would cherry pick dumb arguments in complete ignorance.

Its hilarious that you think you are a critical thinker. Quite cute, if it wasn't that you spreading misinformation and dumb questions are the sort of shit that makes people vaccine hesitant and health order compliance resistant.

For Fuck sake. This is the first time in my living memory we've actually had lockdowns and health mandates. Its hardly a Police state.

[pritch]

How fast does your immune system work, either natural or immunised, how fast do those immune cells eat/destroy the virus?

It's ironic seeing people bringing up the immune system. The people who die of COVID mostly die of intersticial pneumonia which results from inflamation caused by the body's response to the infection. You could almost say their immune system killed them.

[mashman]

It's ironic seeing people bringing up the immune system. The people who die of COVID mostly die of intersticial pneumonia which results from inflamation caused by the body's response to the infection. You could almost say their immune system killed them.

Is that almost as ironic as people bringing up the immune system killing the immune system when it is well understood, well, to those paying attention (hence irony), that the spike protein of covid causes inflammation... but hey, don't let misinformation get in the way of spreading stupidity. Some irony is just comedy gold.

[husaberg]

Is that almost as ironic as people bringing up the immune system killing the immune system when it is well understood, well, to those paying attention (hence irony), that the spike protein of covid causes inflammation... but hey, don't let misinformation get in the way of spreading stupidity. Some irony is just comedy gold.

So what is your medical training again?
How is it you claim to know more than medical professionals?

[TheDemonLord]

OK, maybe not every single last person that opposes mandates is anti-vax, just the overwhelming majority of them.
Ben Shapiro is a huge cunt for many other reasons, just as well he isn't also an anti-vaxer.

So we've gone from 'All people who oppose Mandates are Anti-Vax' to 'The Overwhelming Majority are'

I don't disagree that some people are anti-vax, but the majority of people objecting to the Mandates are doing so on the principle that the Government cannot compel you to do something to your body that you don't wish done to it.

Oh, dear, so much lack of understanding . . .

There are so many ways that unvaccinated people are putting the vaccinated at risk. Vaccines do work, but most are not 100% effective - some people will get sick, some will need ICU and some will even die, despite being vaccinated. Then there are the people that cannot be vaccinated and the people that are immuno-compromised. There is a thing called 'herd immunity', if you understood what that is then you would most likely be able to understand the reason why all of society benefits from having everyone that can be vaccinated, doing so.

Except for one teensy tiny detail - see, I'm quite familiar with Herd Immunity - and one of the key things that is required for it to work is for the Vaccine to stop or significantly limit transmission. The most famous example being the eradication of Small Pox in the wild.

The problem that we have is based on the best Scientific data (y'know - that thing you keep championing when convenient, but omitting when it's inconvenient) is that the Vaccine only has any meaningful effect at stopping Transmission within a narrow window of time.

And this isn't just my theory - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00728-2

One of the key issues cited is that the 90% for Herd Immunity number is predicated on a Vaccine that blocks Transmission.

Let's not forget the people that have medical events or are hurt in accident or need to get tumours checked - in some countries those people have died due to overwhelmed health services due to huge numbers of Covid cases. The reality is that high numbers of unvaccinated people can be a direct cause of health systems being overwhelmed, leading to suffering and deaths from other unrelated things. I consider the anti-vaxxers to be selfish cunts because their decision to not vaccinate puts the lives of other people at risk, but they care more about their mis-informed ideas than the lives of others.

Sure, and perhaps I might give that argument some credence if we were getting close to that, but we aren't - and we know we aren't because if there was even the slightest whiff of it, it would be run 24/7 through the News as justification for more abuses of power, more government spending etc.

Whenever I come across reasoning like the bit quoted it is very helpful, it tells me that the person does not understand the topic and is arguing from a position of ignorance. Not understanding how a vaccine works, not understanding the concept of herd immunity, not understanding the benefits of mass vaccination, etc. This is a fairly common thing with anti-vaxxers and science deniers, so many fallacious arguments of various types with the resulting holes in their reasoning that are big enough to drive a bus through. When someone says "if you are vaccinated than why do you care if anyone else if vaccinated" I read that as "I don't understand the science and really don't know what I'm talking about".

Then it seems to be a bit of a problem for all that torrent of abuse that I'm actually quite well read on the subject of Vaccines and Herd Immunity.

The Vaccine as it stands, for someone who is not in the at-risk age brackets (60+) and not with co-morbidity - will stop you from dying from Covid (well, take a 98% survival rate to 100% )

The person who has been fully vaccinated and still dies from Covid - I think it's fair (if not harsh) to say that luck wasn't on their side. Or to put it another way - they have pre-existing factors that make the susceptible to any highly mutable and contagious respiratory pathogen.

And I don't say that glibly - I've lost elderly family members (who were VERY elderly) from complications from the Flu, it sucks - but that's the reality of getting to 90+.

Well, that's different to the numbers I've read. I don't even understand what the hell it is supposed to mean when you say "if you are double vaxxed, you still have a greater than 50% chance of being a carrier and passing it on" - in what circumstances are you at greater than 50% chance of being a carrier? The way that is phrased makes me think it is something posted on an anti-vax website by a barely literate retard.

Asymptomatic Carrier with both shots of the Vaccine vs an Asymptomatic carrier without the Vaccince.

If the carrier without a Vaccine is 100% likely to transmit and someone who does not have Covid represents a 0% chance - the numbers break down like this:

Double Vaxxed, within 3 months and a carrier: 57% chance of transmission
Double Vaxxed, after 3 months and a carrier: 70% chance of transmission
Recovered from Covid, within 5 months and a carrier: 20% chance of transmission

Come on - you're the one who is supposedly familiar with these concepts - and I'm supposedly the science denying anti-vaxxer (which is hilarious - as I can gladly point you to the pro-vaccination arguments I've made at length against anti-vaxxers on this forum)

There is a lot more to consider than just the death rate. There is the hospitalisation rate, which is much higher than the death rate. Then there is the possibility of 'long Covid' which sounds like a right cunt of a thing. Perhaps the most scary is the potential for long term (possibly life-long) organ damage (heart, lungs, kidneys, brain, gonads, etc) which scientists have found cases of, even in people that only ever had mild Covid symptoms.

Sure, I agree hospitalisation rates are a thing - but I come back to my point that if you play that to it's logical conclusion - you'd ban private transport, Alcohol and DIY.

We accept the cost to society for those things, knowing full well that we have to pay for them - so why are you okay with paying for those, but are suddenly aghast when I apply the same liberal position to something like Covid?

Furthermore - I'm skeptical of the claims about life-long damage from Covid - mainly because we've not really lived with the disease for long enough to make those sorts of predictions.

Personally, I'm not so worried about getting Covid now that I'm vaccinated. I'm worried about the lockdown measures crippling our society and the economy.

Then don't lockdown, join the Libertarian position

I'm worried about the health system being overwhelmed and that leading to many more deaths.

If that was close to happening, I, too, would share that concern - but it isn't - so citing it as a concern is like me saying I'm concerned about Tonga doing a Military invasion of NZ.

I'm worried about vulnerable people dying in part due to the decisions of the selfish people.

So you want to ban private Vehicles, Alcohol, Swimming Pools, DIY then? I'm hammering this point home because that is the price we pay for Freedom - some people will die due to their own stupid actions and tragically some innocent people will die as well.

I'm not happy about that reality - but I would pick it every day of the week because the alternative is absolute tyranny.

I'm worried about families and friends kept apart by closed borders (international borders and the Auckland border).

Then ignore the Borders.

All these measures to limit the spread of the virus are needed largely because of Government Policy.

There, I've fixed it for you. I'd rather the Government cared a little bit more about my Freedoms than it profess to care about my Health.

I'm not in favour of making anyone get the vaccine if they don't want to, but I am in favour of incentivising people to do the right thing.

Incentivizing or punishing?

See, those are two VERY distinct concepts. If the Government was to say 'On completion of your second dose, you'll get a $20 gift card' - I'd piss and moan about my taxes being wasted - but that is an incentive.

I also believe that letting a bartender serve hundreds of people on a busy Friday night, without requiring that person to be vaccinated, would be borderline criminal. For the sake of protecting others there are many jobs that absolutely should be restricted to only vaccinated people.

And here we get to what you actually believe - you believe in Punishment, by artificially revoking the Freedom of Movement and Freedom of association from the Jews, sorry, Bourgeoisie, Damn, Blacks - Oops - I mean 'Unvaccinated' to punish them.

Terribly sorry there, I sometimes get confused between which group we are meant to be discriminating against because we don't like them...

Similarly there are mass gatherings that could easily be super spreader events if not limited to only vaccinated people, it seems to me that it would be better to limit those gatherings to only vaccinated people than to outright cancel them. For example we have already had the 2020 Cold Kiwi and the 2021 Cold Kiwi cancelled, I'd rather be able to attend the Cold Kiwi while vaccinated than to have it cancelled again.

Ah yes, the Super Spreader events - that only seem to be super spreader events when it's not a Left-Wing protest...

(Do I need to post the picture of Stalinda at one of these, mask of taking a group photo without social distancing?)

There have been cases cropping up where there are workers that don't want to get vaccinated and there are other workers that don't want to work with unvaccinated people. You can say that the first group have rights, but don't the other group have rights too?

You only have the right to do something with your own body. This is where the correct understanding of Natural Rights is critically important:

If you don't want to work with someone who is Unvaccinated, you can choose to find another job or you can negotiate with your employer an arrangement whereby you don't have any contact with that person (e.g. change job sites, work remotely, change shifts, move desks etc.)

You cannot use your wants to enforce something upon someone else. You can only make decisions for yourself.

Again - your right to swing your fist in the air stops where my nose begins.

I've visited a workplace that had a sign asking people that had cold/flu/other symptoms to not enter because a worker there was undergoing chemotherapy, I wonder how a workplace in that situation would feel about unvaccinated workers/visitors during a pandemic?

This is an excellent point - In the scenario you've described - you have a single workplace - making a request, because of a specific issue.

I have no problem with this.

It's small scale, limited, with a reason, requested and not mandated. This is the type of social negotiation that the Liberal position encourages, free from the fiat of the State - that the individuals can decide what is best for themselves for a given scenario.

To answer the question as to how they would feel - Feeling isn't the important factor here - They've made a request and in a polite and tolerant society, other people would respect that. If there was a scenario where someone who was unvaccinated HAD to visit the workplace, then the appropriate thing would be negotiate an arrangement - such as the person on Chemo working from home that day isolating part of the premises.

Hopefully that illuminates the difference between Mandates (which I'm opposed to) and requests (which are fine by me).

[R650R]

It's ironic seeing people bringing up the immune system. The people who die of COVID mostly die of intersticial pneumonia which results from inflamation caused by the body's response to the infection. You could almost say their immune system killed them.

From what I’ve read the virus damages the ability of the blood to bind properly to oxygen, hence perceived need for ventilators which provevfutile If the bloodvitself is not carrying oxygen properly
Also ventilators themselves are dangerous if not carefully used, pre covid about 20% of patients end up with ventilator acquired pneumonia. A life saving tool but not without its own problems

[TheDemonLord]

You must drive on the left. How would you feel about someone expressing their personal liberties to drive anywhere they like on the road if they were to take you out?

Well, I left Auckland, so I think my perspective on that is rather clear...

Many laws exist for the protection of everyone

Sure, but most of those are 'this is what you can't do', very few are 'this is what you must do', and using your driving on the left example, the LTA has a number of exceptions where it doesn't apply - such as avoiding an accident - which is inline with the liberal principle of where a prescriptive law is required, it should be done with as much limitation as possible.

[MarkH]

Sure, but most of those are 'this is what you can't do', very few are 'this is what you must do'

Do you mean laws like "you can't work in hospitality serving customers if you are unvaccinated".
There is no law stating "you must get vaccinated", so what laws are you referring to that say 'this is what you must do'?

[husaberg]

From what I’ve read the virus damages the ability of the blood to bind properly to oxygen, hence perceived need for ventilators which provevfutile If the bloodvitself is not carrying oxygen properly
Also ventilators themselves are dangerous if not carefully used, pre covid about 20% of patients end up with ventilator acquired pneumonia. A life saving tool but not without its own problems

The pneumonia is a result of the dead white blood cells which create a pusy discharge, they are there to fight an infection.
The need for the ventilator is not a "perecieved need" it's a real-life consequence resulting from the virus and the body's immune system response to it lowering the ability to transport air from the lungs to the blood. Ventilators pump air with higher oxygen content. they do this under positive pressure so they pump more of higher oxygen content.
Is there no end to your willingness to spread misinformation?
Does spreading this misinformation somehow make up for your other issues????

[FJRider]

Do you mean laws like "you can't work in hospitality serving customers if you are unvaccinated".
There is no law stating "you must get vaccinated", so what laws are you referring to that say 'this is what you must do'?

Not so much law ... just (Government) "advised" practice and protocol for business's to be seen doing it right ... there might be a few strings attached if they don't follow that advice.

[FJRider]

You must drive on the left. How would you feel about someone expressing their personal liberties to drive anywhere they like on the road if they were to take you out? Many laws exist for the protection of everyone

People still die on the wrong side of the road ... and are expressing their personal liberty to overtake whenever they deem it necessary now.

Two died just last weekend because of this very action.

It might surprise me if you never had a close call ... by somebody doing this to you ... on your bit of road.

[R650R]

Highly suspect article from fluff news...

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/healt...time-of-crisis


And in this one they neglect to mention that truck transport would have been thin on the ground back then and reserved for war efforts. Train would simply have been most practical and safest option in circimstances.
Yes many people list their lives but the logistics would have been a minor problem.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/30042...ear-the-bodies

[pritch]

Highly suspect article from fluff news...

As the TV news mentions virtually every nght that maori are slow to get vaccinated with no explanations as to why that might be, I sit here thinking WTF? The article only dealt with the views of one family but it suggests a partial answer.

I understand that Maori tend to regard "the Crown" with mistrust, there's ample reason for that, but the virus won't take their views into consideration.

[R650R]

As the TV news mentions virtually every nght that maori are slow to get vaccinated with no explanations as to why that might be, I sit here thinking WTF? The article only dealt with the views of one family but it suggests a partial answer.

I understand that Maori tend to regard "the Crown" with mistrust, there's ample reason for that, but the virus won't take their views into consideration.

I was more worried about the possible fake news angle, those type of people if they actually talk to media (especially about gang business in second interview) usually don’t have their names changed turning the piece into an agony aunt article ( a profitiable journalusm sector)...

On your point though the media and govt in NO way should be mentioning g what race is more vaccinated or not. That’s very dangerous territory. If it’s an issue they should be dealing direct with community leaders. Shaming any group especially with this 90% game only creates barriers.
Getting the vaccine (unless in remote area) is the easiest thing in NZ govt provided service history ever, you ring a number get an appointment and go, many employers even pay on company time, so I roll my eyes a bit too at any person saying it’s difficult (outside of their own personal choices etc)

[pritch]

On your point though the media and govt in NO way should be mentioning g what race is more vaccinated or not. That’s very dangerous territory. If it’s an issue they should be dealing direct with community leaders. Shaming any group especially with this 90% game only creates barriers.
Getting the vaccine (unless in remote area) is the easiest thing in NZ govt provided service history ever, you ring a number get an appointment and go, many employers even pay on company time, so I roll my eyes a bit too at any person saying it’s difficult (outside of their own personal choices etc)

If all demographic groups were getting themselves vaccinated at maximum speed I'd agree. There are definite targets though and if any particular groups are lagging behind, attention needs to go to those. When there's an attitude that suggests the government only wants Maori vaccinated to protect rich white people, the 90% target may be a lost cause. As absurd as that seems though, it's no sillier than suggesting the vaccine makes you magnetic.

As you say the process is really simple. Having said that, I don't remember seeing a single Maori person on either of my visits both of which were booked for Sunday evening. Not all Maori live in remote areas there are many in town here and from memory the local vaccination center ran from noon until 8PM seven days a week.
It's not as if it couldn't be fitted in to a busy schedule.