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Thread: The journey that COVID-19 will take us on

  1. #1636
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    If you have life ... you're breathing. Always a good start to the day if you know you're breathing. What you do with your life is what counts.
    Liberty is the ability to go where you wish. Within the bounds of law. In these times of Covid ... a few have a little less liberty to go where they please.
    Property is owned ... and not always by you. For many ... the fruits of their labour (or Benefit) is a meal at McDonalds.
    You're essentially making the argument that Covid restrictions are immoral - which I entirely applaud.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Your opinion is YOUR opinion. Your opinions are not the "Bedrock on which our Civilization[sic] rests.

    If you have confused your opinions as being part of "Freedom of speech" ... the Law is quite specific about what you can or can't say.
    The Bedrock is the Protestant notion that the Individual contains the spark of Divinity and that any affront to the individual is an affront to God.

    From there we got the concept of 'God Given Rights' something which was ordained by a higher authority than Man and so could not be restricted by Man.
    These evolved in the Western philosophical cannon (Hobbes/Locke) that without any Government, an Individual had certain Freedoms that existed in Nature (Natural Rights) and that these were equivalent to the notion of God Given, without the appeal to a deity.

    I'm not confused, this is simply the fact of how our society Evolved. In terms of Freedom of Speech - sure Libel/slander is prohibited, but that is usually judged with a bias towards Freedom of Speech (well, it used to be...)

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Kick the doors down ... yep they STILL do. Long periods of questioning at the local (or not so local) Police station happen. Some might call that torture.

    Bugger eh .. !!!
    I'm talking more about the Re-education type of Torture, the Social Credit type of police raid.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Not my problem. I don't go to those places (without being armed).
    And when those places come to you, because of the erosion of the bulwark against them that was Western Civilization, what then?

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Even the right to liberty is earned ... by continued good behavior and undetected crime. Thus your liberty can be withheld. Indefinitely.
    Nope, that's the wrong way to conceptualize it.

    You have Liberty, until you violate the liberty of others. It is not Earned, it is Granted until YOU violate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Bullshit. I've seen you mention your "God given rights" in this very forum.
    Correct, normally in conjuction with 'Natural Rights', because I'm an Atheist.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Even the countries that have laws based on Human Rights ... will have conditions and restrictions (written into their law as in NZ) ... as in "Free" speech. There ARE restrictions on what you can legally say.
    Some might say that those restrictions (see the Covid Lockdowns, Covid Passports, Jacinda's 'Two-Tier society') are in complete violation of those Human Rights.

    Most can accept the concept of Libel/Slander as an exception to Free Speech, since it violates the rights of others, apart from that, there is very little that is restricted.

    Hell, I can go to Whitcoulls/Amazon and buy a copy of the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf, although I should add - with their banning/censorious nature, if Labour continue, I'm not sure how long such things will last.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    What nation would that be ... ?? If you think its the USA ... think again. Count the zero's in their listed National debit.

    Personally ... I doubt you can count that high.
    If WW3 happened tomorrow, which side would you want to be on?

    The Yanks, The Chinese, the Russians, The British?

    For all their faults, the Yanks are still the biggest kid on the block (despite Biden's best efforts to destroy that)


    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Unless you read the background to that quote ... you cannot quote with accuracy. And ACTUAL fact.

    He was writing about a tax dispute between the Pennsylvania General Assembly and the family of the Penns. The proprietary family of the Pennsylvania colony who ruled it from afar. And the legislature was trying to tax the Penn family lands to pay for frontier defense during the French and Indian War. And the Penn family kept instructing the governor to veto. Franklin felt that this was a great affront to the ability of the legislature to govern. And so the Penn family actually intended (literally) buy a little temporary safety. The Penn family was trying to give a lump sum of money in exchange for the General Assembly's acknowledging that it did not have the authority to tax it.

    So ... far from being a pro-privacy quotation ... if anything ... it's a pro-taxation and pro-defense spending quotation.

    It is also a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means (in context) not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying ... but much closer to the opposite of what people think it means.

    Look it up if you don't believe me.
    I'm aware of the original context, however the reason it has been remembered through the nearly 250 years since it was written is because it articulates an ethos that is core to the American identity.

    There are other phrases that have had drastic changes to their meaning over time - the lady doth Protest too much as an example.

    So yes, Franklin may have meant it in the context you cited, but the context that has preserved it through the ages is the one in which I and virtually everyone else who cites it, uses it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Many died fighting for the USA to remain free and gave up their liberty and lives to achieve that.

    The true cost of Liberty is always understated. But it was earned at a cost.

    Few will know to thank those that gave up their own freedoms and rights (one being to stay alive) ... for the privilege of those remaining ... to enjoy their freedoms ... rights ... AND LIVES.

    And quite a number of New Zealanders died to preserve OUR "RIGHT" to those freedoms.
    I totally agree, which is why often you will see anti-Lockdown and anti-Authoritarian statements evoking the sacrifices made for freedom by those that have fallen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    Just out of interest what’s it like under Biden? Cause wasn’t all the deaths trumps fault????
    Trumps racist actions in closing birder to China stopped Chinese people from coming to die in America so that prob distorted the stats
    really? That's odd as the actual facts differ.
    Trump’s travel ban on China was ordered January 31st — He did not shut down "all" travel from China and Europe.
    He closed the border to most foreigners travel from China to the U.S. — exempting U.S. citizens and some others — but he did not shut down the borders completely. On March 11, Trump ordered the border closed to foreigners coming to the U.S. from 26 European states, but not all of Europe.
    The U.S. implemented a restriction on foreign travelers who had been in China in the past two weeks, at 5 p.m. Feb. 2. Italy had already done so by Jan. 31 and North Korea had banned all foreign tourists Jan. 22.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




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  3. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    You're essentially making the argument that Covid restrictions are immoral - which I entirely applaud.
    Those people made the free choice of action (or is that actually inaction) ... knowing what the result would be in that regard. Their choice ... their problem.

    I don't even find whorehouses immoral ... so other peoples self inflicted restrictions ... don't cause me any grief. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    The Bedrock is the Protestant notion that the Individual contains the spark of Divinity and that any affront to the individual is an affront to God.
    I was brought up[ Presbyterian ... but the spark of divinity never caught hold.

    Those that don't believe in a god ... care little about what protestants notions are held. Or hold no belief they could be right.

    If you actually believe there is a god ... you might have a better argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    From there we got the concept of 'God Given Rights' something which was ordained by a higher authority than Man and so could not be restricted by Man.
    It's difficult to believe that some of your rights are given by god ... if you don't believe in god. A Catch 22 sort of situation. If one does not exist ... neither can the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    These evolved in the Western philosophical cannon (Hobbes/Locke) that without any Government, an Individual had certain Freedoms that existed in Nature (Natural Rights) and that these were equivalent to the notion of God Given, without the appeal to a deity.
    Philosophical discussions are not my strong point. But those with a philosophical attitude have (or are showing) a calm attitude towards disappointments. In that regard ... be as philosophical as you like. And get used to disappointment. Proving your theories might be difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I'm not confused, this is simply the fact of how our society Evolved. In terms of Freedom of Speech - sure Libel/slander is prohibited, but that is usually judged with a bias towards Freedom of Speech (well, it used to be...)
    Society evolved to the point that what most believe ... isn't either fact OR Law. Go figure.

    Those two you mentioned ... a start. By no means the end though.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I'm talking more about the Re-education type of Torture, the Social Credit type of police raid.
    Have you considered ... it might still (can) happen ?? On matters of National Security ... the powers are STILL there.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    And when those places come to you, because of the erosion of the bulwark against them that was Western Civilization, what then?
    I'll find a fat useless cunt to stand behind.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Nope, that's the wrong way to conceptualize it.
    Some of my relatives fought so your liberty could be continued. Reality obviously isn't your strong point.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    You have Liberty, until you violate the liberty of others. It is not Earned, it is Granted until YOU violate it.
    See above ... and your liberty can be taken also. In a Court of law. In THIS country too. See above about reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Correct, normally in conjuction with 'Natural Rights', because I'm an Atheist.
    You simply can't have a God given right if you don't believe that a god exists. No "conjunction" can thus be made with something that does not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Some might say that those restrictions (see the Covid Lockdowns, Covid Passports, Jacinda's 'Two-Tier society') are in complete violation of those Human Rights.
    See a Lawyer. Fight it. Good luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Most can accept the concept of Libel/Slander as an exception to Free Speech, since it violates the rights of others, apart from that, there is very little that is restricted.
    It may surprise you to learn the truth about that. Look it up. There is a LOT more.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Hell, I can go to Whitcoulls/Amazon and buy a copy of the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf, although I should add - with their banning/censorious nature, if Labour continue, I'm not sure how long such things will last.
    Under freedom of the press some things are still allowed to be read. NZ doesn't really have many censorship issues in that regard. But incitement laws may be relevant to be read ... before encouraging others to take anti-Government actions. You may be visited at 4am ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    If WW3 happened tomorrow, which side would you want to be on?

    The Yanks, The Chinese, the Russians, The British?

    For all their faults, the Yanks are still the biggest kid on the block (despite Biden's best efforts to destroy that)
    The Yanks like to think they are. Even without Biden's help.

    We have treaties with the Yanks AND Poms. And we trade with the other two. Can THEY afford a war ... or can they afford NOT to start a war ??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I'm aware of the original context, however the reason it has been remembered through the nearly 250 years since it was written is because it articulates an ethos that is core to the American identity.
    It has been remembered wrongly (and not just by you ... so don't feel too bad about it) and thusly you misquoted him. Your mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    There are other phrases that have had drastic changes to their meaning over time - the lady doth Protest too much as an example.
    Never heard of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    So yes, Franklin may have meant it in the context you cited, but the context that has preserved it through the ages is the one in which I and virtually everyone else who cites it, uses it.
    Remembered ... misquoted ... misunderstood ... and I see no chance that the misquoting of it stopping anytime soon. I see it as the lack of a decent education of some.

    Blame your school teachers.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I totally agree, which is why often you will see anti-Lockdown and anti-Authoritarian statements evoking the sacrifices made for freedom by those that have fallen.
    National Pandemics have different rules to be followed than your average war or invasion. But (usually) the best way to fight either ... is by any means at your disposal. Choosing to do nothing and letting others fight your battle ... wasn't the Kiwi way I learned about in High school history class.

    In Pandemics ... it's the weaker one's that die out first. Such is life. Those that refuse to take vaccines to (supposedly) help you fight the virus ... could be a little shortsighted.

    Time will tell.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Those people made the free choice of action (or is that actually inaction) ... knowing what the result would be in that regard. Their choice ... their problem.
    I don't even find whorehouses immoral ... so other peoples self inflicted restrictions ... don't cause me any grief. Sorry.
    And what when other peoples restrictions, end up infringing on what you want to do? Will that cause you grief?


    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    I was brought up[ Presbyterian ... but the spark of divinity never caught hold.

    Those that don't believe in a god ... care little about what protestants notions are held. Or hold no belief they could be right.

    If you actually believe there is a god ... you might have a better argument.

    It's difficult to believe that some of your rights are given by god ... if you don't believe in god. A Catch 22 sort of situation. If one does not exist ... neither can the other.
    I can outline the history of an idea that started in Christianity, without being Christian. The genesis (pun fully intended) of the idea of rights IS a Christian one. It evolved into having an Atheistic equivalent.

    Which is why I use Natural Rights and include that when I'm referencing God-Given Rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Philosophical discussions are not my strong point. But those with a philosophical attitude have (or are showing) a calm attitude towards disappointments. In that regard ... be as philosophical as you like. And get used to disappointment. Proving your theories might be difficult.
    Quite.



    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Society evolved to the point that what most believe ... isn't either fact OR Law. Go figure.

    Those two you mentioned ... a start. By no means the end though.
    Sure, there's incitement, there's also ones that a priori need a crime to happen (e.g. videos of real murder, CP etc.) but the argument there isn't a Freedom of Speech issue, it's that in order to produce, there has to be a violation of someone elses rights

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Have you considered ... it might still (can) happen ?? On matters of National Security ... the powers are STILL there.
    The closest in recent memory was the fiasco over Kim Dotcom - and that ended as a big egg on the Governments face. And whilst the powers are still there, there are checks and balances predicated on the individual having rights that limit their usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Some of my relatives fought so your liberty could be continued. Reality obviously isn't your strong point.
    As did mine - however when it comes to Rights, they are not earned. There is no test that one has to pass (for example) to have Bodily Autonomy. Sure, there may be Tyrants that wish to infringe on that right (which I consider Immoral) and that may necessitate Conflict for the right to be preserved, but the Right always existed.

    Again, the example of the Man in the field, without any of the constraint of society - He is free to move, to speak, to defend himself and to decide what happens to his Body.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    See above ... and your liberty can be taken also. In a Court of law. In THIS country too. See above about reality.
    Only when you violate the rights of others. That's the bit you are missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    You simply can't have a God given right if you don't believe that a god exists. No "conjunction" can thus be made with something that does not exist.
    I can reference a concept that exists (but I don't believe in) and reference it in conjunction with a concept that also exists (that I do believe in).

    I personally don't believe that rights are granted by God, but I accept there is a concept of a God-given right. I also respect that this particular strand of thought is responsible for the development of the concept of 'Natural rights' which I do believe in.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    See a Lawyer. Fight it. Good luck.
    I actually read the Human Rights Commission of NZs thoughts on Covid Passports - it was essentially a perfect argument as to why that institution isn't fit for the purpose it proports to be for and should be disbanded.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    It may surprise you to learn the truth about that. Look it up. There is a LOT more.
    See above as to most of the examples you are likely to cite are predicated on the violation of other rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    The Yanks like to think they are. Even without Biden's help.

    We have treaties with the Yanks AND Poms. And we trade with the other two. Can THEY afford a war ... or can they afford NOT to start a war ??
    And which side would you rather be on? I think we both know the answer - which is the side whose governance is based on the Liberal principles I espouse - and the reason for the lack of answer is because if you admit that, you are also proving (empirically) a number of my assertions.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    It has been remembered wrongly (and not just by you ... so don't feel too bad about it) and thusly you misquoted him. Your mistake.

    Remembered ... misquoted ... misunderstood ... and I see no chance that the misquoting of it stopping anytime soon. I see it as the lack of a decent education of some.

    Blame your school teachers.
    The Artist does not get to dictate the interpretation of their Art.

    Regardless of what the Context was, the reason the quote has stood the test of time is because it speaks to a core part of the American identity: Freedom is the highest value.

    Or if you'd like another quote:

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

    So yes, it may be incorrect from the original usage, it's usage has evolved with time and it is in that context that I use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Never heard of it.
    Shakespeare, Hamlet IIRC. The original meaning was that a character was promising too much, however the common usage now is of someone demonstrating their guilt, by excessively pleading their innocence.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    National Pandemics have different rules to be followed than your average war or invasion. But (usually) the best way to fight either ... is by any means at your disposal. Choosing to do nothing and letting others fight your battle ... wasn't the Kiwi way I learned about in High school history class.

    In Pandemics ... it's the weaker one's that die out first. Such is life. Those that refuse to take vaccines to (supposedly) help you fight the virus ... could be a little shortsighted.

    Time will tell.
    Sure, in an existential threat to the National, sometimes certain freedoms might be curtailed. Identity cards in WW2, Rationing etc. And where the Pandemic dropping people like flies (and not a 99% survival rate), you might have a point. If it particularly affected Children, you might have a point.

    The question is whether the response is proportional to the threat. Suffice to say I think it isn't. I also happen to think there will be some very interesting unintended consequences in the future for the over-reaction to Covid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    And what when other peoples restrictions, end up infringing on what you want to do? Will that cause you grief?
    I haven't noticed any issues in that regard so far. A few disgruntled (intended patron failures) provide continued amusement ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I can outline the history of an idea that started in Christianity, without being Christian. The genesis (pun fully intended) of the idea of rights IS a Christian one. It evolved into having an Atheistic equivalent.
    You don't believe in God ... but you believe what they do ... ???



    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Quite.
    Good luck with that ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Sure, there's incitement, there's also ones that a priori need a crime to happen (e.g. videos of real murder, CP etc.) but the argument there isn't a Freedom of Speech issue, it's that in order to produce, there has to be a violation of someone elses rights
    If the rules for "Freedom" of speaking are followed ... nobody else's rights need be violated. It's that simple ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    The closest in recent memory was the fiasco over Kim Dotcom - and that ended as a big egg on the Governments face. And whilst the powers are still there, there are checks and balances predicated on the individual having rights that limit their usage.
    That YOU are aware of. ie: But that one made the news. The others did not.

    If you actually believe there were NO other such occasions of a similar nature ... because YOU didn't hear about it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    There is no test that one has to pass (for example) to have Bodily Autonomy.
    In NZ at this time ... "Bodily Autonomy" is already written into law under the heading of rape. Calling it a "Right" changes NOTHING in regard to stopping it happening ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Again, the example of the Man in the field, without any of the constraint of society - He is free to move, to speak, to defend himself and to decide what happens to his Body.
    As above ... it IS written into Law in NZ ... you have the right to defend yourself. Fat useless pricks find that difficult though.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Only when you violate the rights of others. That's the bit you are missing.
    It's the bit many forget though. Having ability but not the right.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I can reference a concept that ...
    The only concepts I know of that are protected in law are Patents.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I personally don't believe that rights are granted by God, but I accept there is a concept ...
    See above regarding concepts ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I actually read the Human Rights Commission of NZs thoughts on Covid Passports - it was essentially a perfect argument as to why that institution isn't fit for the purpose it proports to be for and should be disbanded.
    To date ... nothing has changed ... The Covid Passport system is STILL in use.

    Argue that ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    See above as to most of the examples you are likely to cite are predicated on the violation of other rights.
    As with most breaches of rights ... those with their rights breached must report it.

    Simple ... right .. ???

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    And which side would you rather be on? I think we both know the answer - which is the side whose governance is based on the Liberal principles I espouse - and the reason for the lack of answer is because if you admit that, you are also proving (empirically) a number of my assertions.
    I prefer winning sides. The last few wars the yanks had ... didn't end well.

    The most powerful nation on earth loosing wars ... ???


    Think about it ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    The Artist does not get to dictate the interpretation of their Art.
    Sometimes ... only the artist calls it art. Go figure.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Regardless of what the Context was, the reason the quote has stood the test of time is because it speaks to a core part of the American identity: Freedom is the highest value.
    It was actually about temporary financial support offered to the Government ... in return for a tax dodge. Hardly a deal of "The highest value" ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Or if you'd like another quote:

    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
    Or ... wait for the rain. Given time ... no evidence will remain of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    So yes, it may be incorrect from the original usage, it's usage has evolved with time and it is in that context that I use it.
    No ... you (as many before you did) misquoted it. The original meaning remains as it was.

    You could have used ... Patrick Henry's quote ... Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death. For you (I believe) a viable option ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Shakespeare, Hamlet IIRC. The original meaning was that a character was promising too much, however the common usage now is of someone demonstrating their guilt, by excessively pleading their innocence.
    You do exactly that quite often.


    Funny that ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Sure, in an existential threat to the National, sometimes certain freedoms might be curtailed. Identity cards in WW2, Rationing etc. And where the Pandemic dropping people like flies (and not a 99% survival rate), you might have a point. If it particularly affected Children, you might have a point.
    And who is to say that the next variant of Covid will not affect children more ?? To date the least protected.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    The question is whether the response is proportional to the threat. Suffice to say I think it isn't. I also happen to think there will be some very interesting unintended consequences in the future for the over-reaction to Covid.
    One piece of advice ... always take threats seriously. Determine actual risk later when you had time to evaluate risk. The life you save may be your own.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    I haven't noticed any issues in that regard so far.
    And what happens when you do notice issues?


    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    You don't believe in God ... but you believe what they do ... ???
    I believe that their belief in a God helped shape a set of values, which subsequently was reasoned to also have an Atheistic basis.

    Acknowledging that it was their belief in a God that started that process is simply being faithful to the historical record.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    If the rules for "Freedom" of speaking are followed ... nobody else's rights need be violated. It's that simple ...
    Not quite, if I spread a rumour about you that results in you loosing all your property etc. Have I violated your rights? That's where we get Slander from.

    If I yell 'FIRE!' in a crowded theatre, and in the resulting stampede, people are seriously injured or even killed, Have I violated their rights? That's where we get incitement from.

    Most of the laws I haven't mentioned are derived from those concepts.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    That YOU are aware of. ie: But that one made the news. The others did not.

    If you actually believe there were NO other such occasions of a similar nature ... because YOU didn't hear about it ...
    Suffice to say it's not a common enough occurrence that it's within the public conscious.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    In NZ at this time ... "Bodily Autonomy" is already written into law under the heading of rape. Calling it a "Right" changes NOTHING in regard to stopping it happening ...
    Not at the point of injury, but it does proved the basis for Recourse. If someone tried to do that, and you killed them - would that be considered Ethical or justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    As above ... it IS written into Law in NZ ... you have the right to defend yourself. Fat useless pricks find that difficult though.
    Indeed, it's almost like the Laws are written referencing this concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    The only concepts I know of that are protected in law are Patents.
    So, if I take your bike, do you not have a legal recourse against me?


    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    To date ... nothing has changed ... The Covid Passport system is STILL in use.

    Argue that ...
    IF the Human Rights Commission weren't raving Lefties and actually stuck to the principle of Human Rights, they would have told the Government to piss off.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    As with most breaches of rights ... those with their rights breached must report it.

    Simple ... right .. ???
    You can't report something to those that are willfully blind. Civil Disobedience on the other hand...

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    I prefer winning sides. The last few wars the yanks had ... didn't end well.

    The most powerful nation on earth loosing wars ... ???


    Think about it ...
    I put it to you that the Yanks could have won, if they had the will to follow through...

    So I guess from that statement, you'll be siding with Britain, Undefeated since 1781.


    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    It was actually about temporary financial support offered to the Government ... in return for a tax dodge. Hardly a deal of "The highest value" ...
    Yes, but what has sustained the quote, to the point where non-americans cite it 250 years later, is it's appeal to Freedom and it's condemnation of trading Freedom for security.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    No ... you (as many before you did) misquoted it. The original meaning remains as it was.
    But meanings can change and this is a perfect example of where something has changed from what it originally was intended - to it's current usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    You could have used ... Patrick Henry's quote ... Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death. For you (I believe) a viable option ...
    And wouldn't you know it, I did. In the same post....

    Bit of an 'Oof!' for you...

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    And who is to say that the next variant of Covid will not affect children more ?? To date the least protected.
    I mean, we've got 4? 5? Major variants, millions upon millions of cases - I think the data at this point is pretty clear. Also an interesting note is that Viral mutations generally become weaker and not stronger.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    One piece of advice ... always take threats seriously. Determine actual risk later when you had time to evaluate risk. The life you save may be your own.
    Which threats?

    And in what order?

    When we wake up in the morning there are a million and 1 different threats to us. If we spend all our time taking every threat seriously, that's a neurological disorder.

    We can't take all threats seriously.

    Specifically in relation to Covid, I think that the Authoritarian measures, the System that provides a full track and trace of where people go and the creation of a 2-tier society are dangerous precedents that will have negative consequences. Some immediately know, others likely to reveal themselves over time.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

  7. #1642
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    And what happens when you do notice issues?
    I'll let you know if I have any. It was laugh a minute today with all the numpties with no covid pass.

    Got my booster shot yesterday. Feeling great.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I believe that their belief in a God helped shape a set of values, which subsequently was reasoned to also have an Atheistic basis.
    Good for you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Not quite, if I spread a rumour about you that results in you loosing all your property etc. Have I violated your rights? That's where we get Slander from.
    Feel free to try ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    If I yell 'FIRE!' in a crowded theatre, and in the resulting stampede, people are seriously injured or even killed, Have I violated their rights? That's where we get incitement from.
    And you'd probably get jail time.

    Go for it ... what could possibly go wrong ... ??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Most of the laws I haven't mentioned are derived from those concepts.
    Concepts are only ideas. They can even be GREAT ideas ... but until they are turned into Reality ... they are only ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Suffice to say it's not a common enough occurrence that it's within the public conscious.
    That you are aware of. If you never hear about such things ... you'll never know for sure.

    The security breaches you mentioned ... would have resulted in increased security.

    But you keep believing it doesn't happen. You'll sleep better.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Not at the point of injury, but it does proved the basis for Recourse. If someone tried to do that, and you killed them - would that be considered Ethical or justified?
    What if they killed you .. ??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Indeed, it's almost like the Laws are written referencing this concept.
    Not worth a dam if they kill you first.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    So, if I take your bike, do you not have a legal recourse against me?
    Aside from the fact that I don't have a bike right now ... it's not the legal recourse you need to fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    IF the Human Rights Commission weren't raving Lefties and actually stuck to the principle of Human Rights, they would have told the Government to piss off.
    Perhaps ... their belief that the right to life ... is more to the point than a few loss of freedoms ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    You can't report something to those that are willfully blind. Civil Disobedience on the other hand...
    Good luck with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I put it to you that the Yanks could have won, if they had the will to follow through...
    The wars weren't lost on the battlefield ... they were lost in the public opinion column's back home. They got sick of watching their kids getting killed on the TV news.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    So I guess from that statement, you'll be siding with Britain, Undefeated since 1781.
    If your decisions are based on guesswork ... good luck with your covid restrictions fight ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Yes, but what has sustained the quote
    Gross (and continued) stupidity.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    But meanings can change and this is a perfect example of where something has changed from what it originally was intended - to it's current usage.
    The only change is the degree of stupidity and ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    And wouldn't you know it, I did. In the same post....

    Bit of an 'Oof!' for you...
    If your complaint is loss of your liberties ... go right ahead and kill yourself. It will be appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I mean, we've got 4? 5? Major variants, millions upon millions of cases - I think the data at this point is pretty clear. Also an interesting note is that Viral mutations generally become weaker and not stronger.
    Omicron is supposed to be the tough one to beat ... but I've been known to be wrong.

    However ... until the covid passes are not required and the virus's are officially beaten ... life as (normal ??) will continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Which threats?

    And in what order?
    Covid seems to be one that concerns a few nowadays ... but if you don't see it as such ... that is entirely your choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    When we wake up in the morning there are a million and 1 different threats to us. If we spend all our time taking every threat seriously, that's a neurological disorder.
    If the threat has already killed people ... it might pay to consider it seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Specifically in relation to Covid, I think that the Authoritarian measures, the System that provides a full track and trace of where people go and the creation of a 2-tier society are dangerous precedents that will have negative consequences. Some immediately know, others likely to reveal themselves over time.
    Do you think anybody cares which Gay bars you frequent .. ??
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

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    Aren't multi quotes fun to read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berries View Post
    Aren't multi quotes fun to read.
    Some of their best work ever.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

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