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Thread: COVID-19 Public Health Response Bill

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    well, so long as you have thought it through then its alright then
    It's not a case of thought it through - I can't think of many governments that have survived a full-scale civil revolt, even with a firepower advantage, whereas I can think of many Governments that have been toppled by a civillian uprising.

    This isn't even a critique or blemish on the NZDF.

    Now, would I be as calm and collected if I had bushmaster 20mm shells exploding meters away from me, probably not. I'd also be rather annoyed and upset at being seriously injured and or killed should that happen, I might even question if it was worth it as I'm bleeding to death.

    The over-arching point however still stands that as a populace, we are governed by Consent and we can, at any moment, revoke that consent. It is the ultimate check and balance to offset the tendancy of Governments to turn towards Tyranny.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    If those gun owners are so law abiding, how come people keep going on how the laws a failure as so of those so called law abiding gun licence holders haven't proved to be law abiding and obeyed the law and handed in their ilegal firearms.
    i guess for gun owner law abiding is rather subjective.
    In case you never noticed the law changes were and are supported by the majority of Kiwis and had 99% support by the political parties........ you dont get more democratic than that.
    Keep telling yourself that, still won't change the fact that the Firearm community choose overwhelmingly to engage in a mass act of Civil Disobedience and not comply with the new laws. Best case scenario for the government was that only 30% were handed in.

    I hope that makes you feel safer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    Some interesting points raised above ... however the favourite tools of communist takeovers are starvation and a knock on the door in the middle of the night.
    We’ve already had our “Krystalnicght” (night of broken glass) moment in NZ history when the police were sent to raid Polynesian “overstayers”....
    So the same thing in modern times will be to abduct under the cover of darkness potential leaders and trouble makers for “Covid” violations and be taken to a “health” camp.
    The other tool is to use lockdowns to cripple supply chains and industry so there is little food available or you can’t afford to buy or travel to get it. They’ve just had a mini practice run at this...

    Watch Holodor, Harvest of Despair on YouTube to see how the bolsheviks easily murdered millions with the above tools by exporting their grain instead of feeding their own.

    The good thing is the first lockdown has shown who are the stasi that can’t be trusted in your own local street. The ones that disobeyed are the ones you can safely trade food and tools with once we go full East German.....
    Whereas the capitalist examples of hundreds/thousands of years of global slavery that left India and Africa (who only regained their soveriengty within the last century, if you can call it regained), to mention a couple, as resource raped landscapes with resources still controlled and exported to the detriment of hundreds of millions. That Common-Wealth was built on the genocide and coercion of entire populations being raped and murdered and starved and enslaved for hundreds of thousands of years... but no, communism ...........

    Oh the satire of it all. Capitalist tyranny (king, church, illuminati, the one leg face slapping salmon chums) wipes out and enslaves everything that crosses its path for centuries (exceptionally well documented), but it was the communists that were the problem because they had to export in order to be able to keep their economy going... especially after so many had died during the war and so on. Satire at its finest... and alive and well in your living room.

    Look what they did, look what they did, that's how we would be
    I didn't think!!! I experimented!!!

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mashman View Post
    Whereas the capitalist examples of hundreds/thousands of years of global slavery that left India and Africa (who only regained their soveriengty within the last century, if you can call it regained), to mention a couple, as resource raped landscapes with resources still controlled and exported to the detriment of hundreds of millions. That Common-Wealth was built on the genocide and coercion of entire populations being raped and murdered and starved and enslaved for hundreds of thousands of years... but no, communism ...........
    India and Africa who themselves happily engaged in Slavery at the expense of rival countries, regions and tribes, yes?

    But hey - by all means, go back to Tribal warfare and ritualistic killings.

    Quote Originally Posted by mashman View Post
    Oh the satire of it all. Capitalist tyranny (king, church, illuminati, the one leg face slapping salmon chums) wipes out and enslaves everything that crosses its path for centuries (exceptionally well documented), but it was the communists that were the problem because they had to export in order to be able to keep their economy going... especially after so many had died during the war and so on. Satire at its finest... and alive and well in your living room.

    Look what they did, look what they did, that's how we would be
    And where Capitalism took hold, despite the wiping-out and enslaving (as you claim) - the Countries Flourished and thrived.
    Where Communism too hold, with no less wiping-out and enslaving (that you omit) - the Countries failed.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    If those gun owners are so law abiding, how come people keep going on how the laws a failure as so of those so called law abiding gun licence holders haven't proved to be law abiding and obeyed the law and handed in their ilegal firearms.
    i guess for gun owner law abiding is rather subjective.
    In case you never noticed the law changes were and are supported by the majority of Kiwis and had 99% support by the political parties........ you dont get more democratic than that.
    Let's go Godwin. When Hitler's administration democratically passed a law requiring Jewish people to wear a yellow star, "you couldn't get more democratic than that", by your standards. Was that a law that should have been abided by?

    Also, The German Enabling Act of 1933 established the power of the government to pass law by decree, bypassing the approval of parliament. Sound familiar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDJ View Post
    Let's go Godwin. When Hitler's administration democratically passed a law requiring Jewish people to wear a yellow star, "you couldn't get more democratic than that", by your standards. Was that a law that should have been abided by?

    Also, The German Enabling Act of 1933 established the power of the government to pass law by decree, bypassing the approval of parliament. Sound familiar?
    the German government wasnt exactly known for its democracy let alone the fact you cant counter a single thing i said hence your need to go goodwin.
    Get back to me when you can counter the points i made......

    let alone the fact that the biggest gun lobby group in nZ has less than 16,000 members.
    Yet there are 250,000 fire arm owners in NZ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




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    Quote Originally Posted by RDJ View Post
    Ulsterkiwi - so you noticed not the repeated threats from senior police and Nash against firearms owners, as the confiscation proceeded, while holding all law abiding owners responsible for the Tarrant butchery (tho' only government officers had let him into NZ and licensed him without proper vetting).

    Nor did you see the news of 12 armed police raiding a family man's home at dinner time (while seemingly unable to control gangs). Guess you also missed police officers chasing people off beaches and parks, while facilitating racist roadblocks.

    And the policing of the first ?9 ?10 days of lockdown rules was done with the police knowing it was ultra vires.

    Guess your attention was elsewhere.
    The firearms laws needed to change. I fully support civilian ownership of firearms for hunting, recreation and competition. Owned a few myself. That ownership that needs to be regulated and controlled for the greater good. Clearly a system that allowed "that" guy to become a licenced owner is broken. I also think it is really hard to justify the ease with which members of the public could obtain firearms only one step away from full military spec (fully automatic). The rules were farcical, no open pistol grip and magazine capacity reduction?
    The guy who inflicted all that harm was out to do harm no matter what, I accept that. Why should we make it easy for him and others like him? Do I need to bring up the relatively unfettered access to firearms in the USA to show how that can pan out?

    Were the owners of, up to then, legal firearms to blame for Tarrants crimes? Absolutely not. Did they bear the brunt of the consequences of the efforts to stop it happening again? Absolutely. When a line is drawn, someone will always miss out, always. I could draw comparisons to many situations where this has happened, some more appropriate than others. I think you are smart enough that I do not have to do that. I think you are smart enough to realise that reform had to happen after those events.
    Did they get it perfectly right? No. Are the police sometimes cack handed? yes. Will that ever change? No.
    I do not say that to dismiss the seriousness of the issue, rather to say it might be naive to think the police will always get things right any more than the writing of the laws they are supposed to enforce.
    This is not a problem unique to New Zealand, every country that aspires to democratic government struggles with balance.

    Should the police have supported the roadblocks in Northland and East Cape? Honestly, I don't know. I think the fear of what might be that was building in those communities was justified. Hone took advantage, that is what people like Hone do. Arresting those people, most of whom I believe were trying to protect their vulnerable communities would only have fueled a fire that is already burning.

    I do not know all the ins and outs of the legal underpinning for the police powers in lockdown. Perhaps they were working on legal advice from crown law or their own counsel? Lawyers, they give opinions like the rest of us. Sometimes they get it wrong.

    I am sorry if this frustrates you but I do not see any of the above or indeed the total as a concerted effort to force an oppressive regime upon us, installed with the support of the police and military.

    I am not ignorant of historical precedent around the globe, however NZ does not have any of the requisite historical baggage which opened up those possibilities elsewhere. The country is not reeling from punitive measures handed out because of our having a leading role in a global conflict, we do not have a history of absolute power sitting with a totalitarian monarch, our political parties sit closer to the centre than anything else. We are a young country, making plenty of mistakes but I do not believe we are destined to follow those made by other parts of the world.
    Of course, like other humans, I could be wrong.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    It's not a case of thought it through - I can't think of many governments that have survived a full-scale civil revolt, even with a firepower advantage, whereas I can think of many Governments that have been toppled by a civillian uprising.

    This isn't even a critique or blemish on the NZDF.

    Now, would I be as calm and collected if I had bushmaster 20mm shells exploding meters away from me, probably not. I'd also be rather annoyed and upset at being seriously injured and or killed should that happen, I might even question if it was worth it as I'm bleeding to death.

    The over-arching point however still stands that as a populace, we are governed by Consent and we can, at any moment, revoke that consent. It is the ultimate check and balance to offset the tendancy of Governments to turn towards Tyranny.
    When you think of those regimes that were toppled, do you think of countries with a system of government, a statute book, a police force, a military or a history that resembles New Zealand? If you do, I would like to know which countries we are talking about.
    I do know a wee bit about civil unrest and political conflict/violence (hint: look at my screen name). It seems to me a bit excessive to be thinking we are in that kind of territory.
    Life is not measured by how many breaths you take, but how many times you have your breath taken away

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    It's not a case of thought it through - I can't think of many governments that have survived a full-scale civil revolt, even with a firepower advantage, whereas I can think of many Governments that have been toppled by a civillian uprising.
    Firepower and numbers advantage only works if there was adequate training ... to give the ability to use that firepower and numbers to their advantage.

    But ... if the civilians involved are trained to use the weapons available to them ... to their advantage ... they could easily gain the advantage.

    Those that can't believe that ... remember Vietnam ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    This isn't even a critique or blemish on the NZDF.
    Good to hear ... For the NZ defense Forces ... any training for local "Crowd Control" was fun at the time, and none of us ever hoped we would ever do it for real (well ... OK .. a few did). We did Base security around the places we were stationed ... and we had to be serious about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Now, would I be as calm and collected if I had bushmaster 20mm shells exploding meters away from me, probably not. I'd also be rather annoyed and upset at being seriously injured and or killed should that happen, I might even question if it was worth it as I'm bleeding to death.
    I've been on the receiving end of a 50 cal' machine gun ... from a yank that had got himself lost. At the time I thought my shirt and fly buttons were keeping me too far off the ground. Annoyed and upset ... was AFTER the shooting stopped ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    The over-arching point however still stands that as a populace, we are governed by Consent and we can, at any moment, revoke that consent. It is the ultimate check and balance to offset the tendancy of Governments to turn towards Tyranny.
    Not quite "At any moment" ... due process has to be followed. Otherwise ANY action (By civilians or Military ... Armed or otherwise) taken against Elected Government or it's staff ... by any serving Military units or Police ... will be not legal. Do you not recall the events and actions taken after the election results in Fiji ... quite a number of years ago ???

    WORLD opinion has a major influence on sanctions placed on countries that have An "irregular" change of Government ...
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    The firearms laws needed to change. I fully support civilian ownership of firearms for hunting, recreation and competition. Owned a few myself.
    Personally ... I've never regarded it as "sport" to shoot Deer (or any wild Game) from much more than a hundred meters or so.

    Question ... what type of shooting activity comes under the "Recreation" heading ... ??
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Personally ... I've never regarded it as "sport" to shoot Deer (or any wild Game) from much more than a hundred meters or so.

    Question ... what type of shooting activity comes under the "Recreation" heading ... ??
    hunting is for food or pest control, not sport

    recreation is target shooting, there is some satisfaction in hitting a moving target or one at some distance away. My personal favourite was targets 800m away using rifles with open sights.

    competition is when you get...competitive.....about the recreational stuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    When you think of those regimes that were toppled, do you think of countries with a system of government, a statute book, a police force, a military or a history that resembles New Zealand? If you do, I would like to know which countries we are talking about.
    Now, I'll preface this with a statement that you'll not find an exact mirror image of NZ, except in NZ. I'll also preface that all the major Revolutions that I can think of had one or more critical failures or causes of discontent that was the catalyst for action. I'm also not including Coup D'etat - since they tend to be instigated by the Military.

    There's the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution, Cambodia, Vietnam, Cuba etc. (most of the latter were still colonies with a westernised form of government and rule of law at the time of the revolution if memory serves)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    I do know a wee bit about civil unrest and political conflict/violence (hint: look at my screen name). It seems to me a bit excessive to be thinking we are in that kind of territory.
    I don't think we are there - but we are closer than we were and closer than I'd like to be.

    By my reading of history, it'd take only 2-3 more 'issues' that had widespread impact to light the fuse.

    Ireland and the Troubles though I think has one factor that separates it from most other political conflict - rather than the typical scenario of the 'the people' rising up against 'the government' - there were 2 groups of 'the people' that were rising up against each other (now, I'll beg your forgiveness for a very brief and massively oversimplified statement on the troubles - as much as I'm known for typing novellas on here, even my fingers would tire if I had to go into much detail(
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Firepower and numbers advantage only works if there was adequate training ... to give the ability to use that firepower and numbers to their advantage.

    But ... if the civilians involved are trained to use the weapons available to them ... to their advantage ... they could easily gain the advantage.

    Those that can't believe that ... remember Vietnam ...



    Good to hear ... For the NZ defense Forces ... any training for local "Crowd Control" was fun at the time, and none of us ever hoped we would ever do it for real (well ... OK .. a few did). We did Base security around the places we were stationed ... and we had to be serious about it.



    I've been on the receiving end of a 50 cal' machine gun ... from a yank that had got himself lost. At the time I thought my shirt and fly buttons were keeping me too far off the ground. Annoyed and upset ... was AFTER the shooting stopped ...



    Not quite "At any moment" ... due process has to be followed. Otherwise ANY action (By civilians or Military ... Armed or otherwise) taken against Elected Government or it's staff ... by any serving Military units or Police ... will be not legal. Do you not recall the events and actions taken after the election results in Fiji ... quite a number of years ago ???

    WORLD opinion has a major influence on sanctions placed on countries that have An "irregular" change of Government ...
    Fair Points, all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    The firearms laws needed to change. I fully support civilian ownership of firearms for hunting, recreation and competition. Owned a few myself. That ownership that needs to be regulated and controlled for the greater good. Clearly a system that allowed "that" guy to become a licenced owner is broken. I also think it is really hard to justify the ease with which members of the public could obtain firearms only one step away from full military spec (fully automatic). The rules were farcical, no open pistol grip and magazine capacity reduction?
    The guy who inflicted all that harm was out to do harm no matter what, I accept that. Why should we make it easy for him and others like him? Do I need to bring up the relatively unfettered access to firearms in the USA to show how that can pan out?

    Were the owners of, up to then, legal firearms to blame for Tarrants crimes? Absolutely not. Did they bear the brunt of the consequences of the efforts to stop it happening again? Absolutely. When a line is drawn, someone will always miss out, always. I could draw comparisons to many situations where this has happened, some more appropriate than others. I think you are smart enough that I do not have to do that. I think you are smart enough to realise that reform had to happen after those events.
    Did they get it perfectly right? No. Are the police sometimes cack handed? yes. Will that ever change? No.
    I do not say that to dismiss the seriousness of the issue, rather to say it might be naive to think the police will always get things right any more than the writing of the laws they are supposed to enforce.
    This is not a problem unique to New Zealand, every country that aspires to democratic government struggles with balance.
    Did the laws need a change - sure. First thing that should have been done was to reclassify high-capacity detachable magazines that were patterned for a semi-auto reciever as requiring an E-Cat licence. You'd have some people who now had illegal magazines (bolt-actions in .223 and .308 that came with 20 round magazines for example) - so for those people you could do a simple swap - bring in your 20 round Magazine, get 2 x 10 round magazines. People would have grumped - but there'd by a lot more acceptance.

    Then, you sit down with the Firearm owners and discuss what changes would and wouldn't work - I say this for 2 reasons - firstly most Firearm owners know they are only 1 tragedy away from having their rights stripped (as in this case) and so have a vested interest in making the system work and secondly, the Auditor General's report - pretty much confirmed everything Firearm owners had said from day 0 - so maybe from that we can presume that they may know a thing or 2 about Firearms.

    Now, you could have grandfathered all the currently legally owned Semi-Autos, you could have introduced a new licence type (Cat-A+) that allowed ownership of Semi-Autos but with an increase in security and vetting, a halfway house between the current A-Cat and previous E-Cat licence, there were a myriad of options.

    Some of the things that for me really irk me on this change are:

    1: They did away with the E-Cat system - there was literally no reason to touch it, to my knowledge, there has never been a serious crime committed by a lawfully owned E-Cat rifle.
    2: Objectively, the Police did not follow the rules when vetting the Terrorist, Online forums is not sufficient for a Character reference.
    3: The speed at which he gained the licence upon entering the country is suspect.
    4: Had the Police done any background checks to Australia, they would have come across information that would have been a cause for denying the application, as a recent migrant, one would think this would be standard to do.
    5: It is clear that the tragedy was used to railroad through the most restrictive and vindictive law changes they could muster that appears to have been drafted well before the event.

    I do not think the Government or the Police acted in Good Faith with the Law changes, I do not like the fact that the entire blame and punishment was placed on the shoulders of those who had nothing to do with the crime, whereas the Police and Immigration NZ got off scot-free.

    I do, however, like the fact that given the best-case scenario for the Government, less than 30% were handed in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Some of the things that for me really irk me on this change are:

    1: They did away with the E-Cat system - there was literally no reason to touch it, to my knowledge, there has never been a serious crime committed by a lawfully owned E-Cat rifle.
    2: Objectively, the Police did not follow the rules when vetting the Terrorist, Online forums is not sufficient for a Character reference.
    3: The speed at which he gained the licence upon entering the country is suspect.
    4: Had the Police done any background checks to Australia, they would have come across information that would have been a cause for denying the application, as a recent migrant, one would think this would be standard to do.
    5: It is clear that the tragedy was used to railroad through the most restrictive and vindictive law changes they could muster that appears to have been drafted well before the event.
    1: The key word is "Lawfully" ... Labouring Governments have always had a bee in their bonnet about the military. It surprises me the Army still have rifles ... and are still allowed to use them. Although ... the empty brass casings are always carefully counted after a range shoot.
    2: Lack of staffing and time ... apparently ...
    3: They had increased staff numbers ... apparently ...
    4: Lack of staff and time ... ???
    5: The greatest fear of any Government (doing dodgy/questionable stuff) is an armed civilian populace ...

    Changes were planned ... but that event was reason enough to speed the process up somewhat. Labour electioneering at it's bet.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I do not think the Government or the Police acted in Good Faith with the Law changes, I do not like the fact that the entire blame and punishment was placed on the shoulders of those who had nothing to do with the crime, whereas the Police and Immigration NZ got off scot-free.
    Police did not carry out the shooting ... but if due (and correct) processes were followed ... that shooting would not have happened. Licensed Firearms owners will always bear the brunt of any weapons related incident after effects ... they always have. And always will.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I do, however, like the fact that given the best-case scenario for the Government, less than 30% were handed in.
    Those that know the truth about weapons numbers "In circulation" are the weapons owners. If they're smart ... they wont comment.

    The Courts might get a little more serious with those found with the prohibited weapons though.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

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