Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst ... 345
Results 61 to 70 of 70

Thread: COVID-19 Public Health Response Bill

  1. #61
    Join Date
    19th March 2005 - 18:55
    Bike
    Wots I gots.
    Location
    BongoCongistan.
    Posts
    884
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    When you think of those regimes that were toppled, do you think of countries with a system of government, a statute book, a police force, a military or a history that resembles New Zealand? If you do, I would like to know which countries we are talking about.
    I do know a wee bit about civil unrest and political conflict/violence (hint: look at my screen name). It seems to me a bit excessive to be thinking we are in that kind of territory.
    Well, unfortunately, there are a few analogous - but not of course identical - historical precedents.

    (I note your screen name, and I learned my earliest i.e. post-graduation trauma medicine in that neighbourhood).

    For example, consider the entity that was Yugoslavia. Its capital, Sarajevo, hosted the Olympics. Only a few years later, its citizens were running for their lives down Sniper Alley trying to get the basics of life... after ethnic and religious divisions spilled over into bloodshed and massacre. Or consider the Hutu-Tutsi genocide; all those villagers, the killers and the killed, used to be neighbours, literally not just figuratively. Also, unless unless it is not news to you, read up on the farm killings in South Africa...

    For perhaps a less dramatic/simplistic example, consider that not that many decades ago, Beirut was known as "the Paris of the Middle East". Culture, civilisation, drama, fine architecture, it had it all. Then it slumped into the slagheap of history.

    Do I think that New Zealand is going to follow any of those paths? no, I don't. However, having lived and worked in many countries which have that sort of recent history - also have a look at what Syria and Iraq were like only a few decades ago and compare that to what they are now - 'there is a great deal of ruin in a nation' as someone once said. And if things go bad, then they will tend to go like Hemingway is reported to have said when he was asked how he went bankrupt - "very slowly, and then suddenly".

    If you or I had told people five years ago that the police would be chasing law-abiding citizens off beaches and pathways back in to their homes because the government said so, but there were no laws underpinning it; if you or I had told people that there would be a terrorist massacre of other immigrants by an immigrant but all New Zealand's firearm licence holders would be blamed; if you or I had told people five months ago that one half million previously-employed New Zealanders would suddenly either be unemployed or on wage subsidies and we are going to have a debt that our children will struggle to pay off - a decision mostly reached (in Ardern's own words) because the Prime Minister had heard from her friends in London that our country had to be locked down, 48 hours after she said that was a rumour - and that she and the government should be our only source of truth - we would have been laughed at.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    25th June 2012 - 11:56
    Bike
    Daelim VL250 Daystar
    Location
    Pyongyang
    Posts
    2,489
    !) char mini
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	E3KB.jpg 
Views:	70 
Size:	385.7 KB 
ID:	345983  
    Govt gives you nothing because it creates nothing - Javier Milei

  3. #63
    Join Date
    15th October 2009 - 17:33
    Bike
    2014 Honda NC750X
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    918
    Blog Entries
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by RDJ View Post
    If you or I had told people five years ago that the police would be chasing law-abiding citizens off beaches and pathways back in to their homes because the government said so, but there were no laws underpinning it;
    The vast majority of people stayed home voluntarily, and turns out most could live with postponing their visits to the beach until such time as they could do so without drawing the attention of the police.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDJ View Post
    if you or I had told people that there would be a terrorist massacre of other immigrants by an immigrant but all New Zealand's firearm licence holders would be blamed;
    Again, the vast majority of people see no reason to own or have no desire to own a firearm, so, just like motorcyclists,
    firearms owners are (excuse the pun) an easy target when politicians feel the need to channel public outrage into law making so they can be seen to have done something about it. It sucks, but as a motorcyclist you knew that already.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDJ View Post
    if you or I had told people five months ago that one half million previously-employed New Zealanders would suddenly either be unemployed or on wage subsidies and we are going to have a debt that our children will struggle to pay off - a decision mostly reached (in Ardern's own words) because the Prime Minister had heard from her friends in London that our country had to be locked down, 48 hours after she said that was a rumour
    Unemployment has been much higher in the past for sundry reasons, it’s not that much of a stretch. Arguably Working for Families is a wage subsidy too, they’ve been on that a lot longer. I guess a lot of other countries spoke to Jacinda’s friends at the same time?? Since they’ve all done pretty much the same thing, for the same reason. The economy is screwed worldwide, not just here. What worries me is nobody seems to be saying, hey, turns out screwing the worldwide economy was really easy, maybe we should build in some safeguards in case this all happens again instead of desperately trying to get back to exactly the way things were before...

    Quote Originally Posted by RDJ View Post
    and that she and the government should be our only source of truth
    Well these days there’s this thing called the internet, so you can pretty much pick and choose whose truth you want to believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by RDJ View Post
    we would have been laughed at.
    If you’d told them that one day everybody would have a phone they could carry in their pockets, they probably would have laughed at that too.
    Moe: Well, I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I...I can't compete with that stuff.
    - The Simpsons

  4. #64
    Join Date
    4th June 2013 - 17:33
    Bike
    R1200GSA
    Location
    Kapiti
    Posts
    1,055
    Quote Originally Posted by RDJ View Post
    Well, unfortunately, there are a few analogous - but not of course identical - historical precedents.

    (I note your screen name, and I learned my earliest i.e. post-graduation trauma medicine in that neighbourhood).

    For example, consider the entity that was Yugoslavia. Its capital, Sarajevo, hosted the Olympics. Only a few years later, its citizens were running for their lives down Sniper Alley trying to get the basics of life... after ethnic and religious divisions spilled over into bloodshed and massacre. Or consider the Hutu-Tutsi genocide; all those villagers, the killers and the killed, used to be neighbours, literally not just figuratively. Also, unless unless it is not news to you, read up on the farm killings in South Africa...

    For perhaps a less dramatic/simplistic example, consider that not that many decades ago, Beirut was known as "the Paris of the Middle East". Culture, civilisation, drama, fine architecture, it had it all. Then it slumped into the slagheap of history.

    Do I think that New Zealand is going to follow any of those paths? no, I don't. However, having lived and worked in many countries which have that sort of recent history - also have a look at what Syria and Iraq were like only a few decades ago and compare that to what they are now - 'there is a great deal of ruin in a nation' as someone once said. And if things go bad, then they will tend to go like Hemingway is reported to have said when he was asked how he went bankrupt - "very slowly, and then suddenly".

    If you or I had told people five years ago that the police would be chasing law-abiding citizens off beaches and pathways back in to their homes because the government said so, but there were no laws underpinning it; if you or I had told people that there would be a terrorist massacre of other immigrants by an immigrant but all New Zealand's firearm licence holders would be blamed; if you or I had told people five months ago that one half million previously-employed New Zealanders would suddenly either be unemployed or on wage subsidies and we are going to have a debt that our children will struggle to pay off - a decision mostly reached (in Ardern's own words) because the Prime Minister had heard from her friends in London that our country had to be locked down, 48 hours after she said that was a rumour - and that she and the government should be our only source of truth - we would have been laughed at.
    Well if you learned how to repair the damage caused by gunshot wounds in the A&E unit of the RVH you will probably be familiar with at least some of the history. You allude to some very striking historical examples, terrible stories whose lessons should not be ignored, I cannot argue with you there. Are they not all however linked to some very long running and deeply seated causes of resentment? Some ethnic, tribal or other division which bubbled away under the surface, awaiting that last wee bit to make things boil over? (I came dangerously close to mixing some metaphors there, I hope you appreciate my self control) I am not so sure NZ is in that place. The issues we are presently having are not really a question of race or creed are they but a concern about government overreach. Do we need to be careful? Absolutely! Are we on the precipice? Nope, not even close.

    I spoke to a Police officer of some experience about 6 months before the 15th March shootings. I commented on the relaxed approach to firearms in NZ. Yes, he said, lots of people will have to die before that changes. Does that make him a conspirator?
    I think it is unfair to say legitimate firearm owners were blamed for the tragedy. Did they lose out in the backlash? I already stated that was the case. That is not the same as blame.I think TDL is correct, something is wrong that noone in the system was ever held to account for the killer being enabled to do what he did. Perhaps an inquiry down the line will remedy that? Even if that happens, what need is there for civilians to have military spec firearms capable of cyclic rates of hundreds of rounds per minute? Is the possum problem that bad?

    COVID has changed the whole world. NZ has gotten off lightly. Was the response perfect? By no objective measure could you say yes. That said I am glad I am here in the country I now call home, not back where I grew up because the leadership here has been of a very high standard and the efforts of the nation have been superb.
    You have your chance in a couple of months to have your say if the PM warrants the opportunity to keep going or to be judged as a power mad authoritarian who wants to tell you how to think and behave. Good luck with the new guy at Simon's old place running our health system, National clearly prioritise that over tax breaks for their high earning friends in finance and the corporate world who pay for the party.
    Life is not measured by how many breaths you take, but how many times you have your breath taken away

  5. #65
    Join Date
    13th June 2010 - 17:47
    Bike
    Exercycle
    Location
    Out in the cold
    Posts
    5,624
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    COVID has changed the whole world. NZ has gotten off lightly. Was the response perfect? By no objective measure could you say yes. That said I am glad I am here in the country I now call home, not back where I grew up because the leadership here has been of a very high standard and the efforts of the nation have been superb.
    You have your chance in a couple of months to have your say if the PM warrants the opportunity to keep going or to be judged as a power mad authoritarian who wants to tell you how to think and behave. Good luck with the new guy at Simon's old place running our health system, National clearly prioritise that over tax breaks for their high earning friends in finance and the corporate world who pay for the party.
    You may want to rephrase the last sentence. National clearly do not prioritise a functioning health system over appeasing the corporate world.
    The new leader is a reversion to the traditional god-bothering rural base type. I can't see anything but traditional Nat policies coming.

    I don't know how long you've been in NZ but this type of legislation has been seen before - but not commented on as widely. Post ChCh quakes the minister in charge - Brownlie of all people - was granted extraordinary powers of entry, examination, shut downs etc, etc. It applied to the whole country but because it was seen as only being a ChCh problem it got overlooked by many. I suspect at least part of it is still on the books.
    Having been through the Nat led "quake recovery" I personally am as grateful as I can be that they weren't in power when this current shit arrived.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    4th June 2013 - 17:33
    Bike
    R1200GSA
    Location
    Kapiti
    Posts
    1,055
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    You may want to rephrase the last sentence. National clearly do not prioritise a functioning health system over appeasing the corporate world.
    The new leader is a reversion to the traditional god-bothering rural base type. I can't see anything but traditional Nat policies coming.

    I don't know how long you've been in NZ but this type of legislation has been seen before - but not commented on as widely. Post ChCh quakes the minister in charge - Brownlie of all people - was granted extraordinary powers of entry, examination, shut downs etc, etc. It applied to the whole country but because it was seen as only being a ChCh problem it got overlooked by many. I suspect at least part of it is still on the books.
    Having been through the Nat led "quake recovery" I personally am as grateful as I can be that they weren't in power when this current shit arrived.
    Ah, clearly I over cooked my sarcasm talking about National's approach to the health system, my work is linked to the health system, I am well aware what the general approach of the National party is. Thank you however for the opportunity to make my position clear.

    13 years. I was here for the tail end of the Clarke government. I was aware of Brownlee's approach which never impressed me, the man comes across as something of a bully. I have often said the rebuild seems to have taken an extraordinarily long time and has been left to the mercy of private insurance companies to set the pace, tone and ease of people rebuilding their lives. Sometimes the private (and by definition, profit driven) sector does not provide the best solution.

    I am neither a red nor blue person, I am interested in appropriate solutions. In the case of the response to COVID-19 I think the blue corner has clearly shown they were well off tack re the appropriate response. The only reason Simon is now "considering his future" is Mr Muller realised verbalising the sentiments that came from National was no way back to power. What they actually think has probably not changed.


    I will change tack slightly here. Part of what impressed me over the lockdown period was the way discussion shifted in the public arena where there was a growing realisation that it wasn't big corporate or the rich and famous who keep society going. In fact, is is people like hospital staff, the guys who drive the rubbish trucks, teachers, the people who keep our power supply working, supermarket staff and yes farmers who are key to maintaining the world we live in. How many companies historically talked about their people being their main asset and then treated them like shit? We were beginning to see a shift away from that in some respects. Now we are out of the worst of it, National are already saying the road ahead is not to focus on people and maintaining jobs but directing money to business. I understand they are linked, I understand business provides jobs. What I am talking about is the message that sends as to what is actually important to them, it is the business, not the people who make the business possible. I hope that fact is discussed in the coming weeks and not the usual election drivel.
    Life is not measured by how many breaths you take, but how many times you have your breath taken away

  7. #67
    Join Date
    7th January 2014 - 14:45
    Bike
    Not a Hayabusa anymore
    Location
    Not Gulf Harbour Either
    Posts
    1,460
    I'm going to add a Wee Anecdote from a friend who works in a very similar capacity to what I do, but for the Health Industry (as a Government employee).

    Since we do very similar things, we often bitch about various Projects, the successes and failures therein etc.

    One such story was about the time my company tried to consolidate a number of back-end systems into one, spent something like $2,000,000 and never actually moved anything - was a total failure of a project.

    To which my friends regales me of a tale of a Project that they had been working on, sunk the better part of $14,000,000 into it, had gotten it to the point where they were just about to roll it out and deploy it. Then comes a change of Management, Scraps the entire thing etc. etc. The worst part was the look he gave me when he said that this is fair more common with Government run things.

    Point of sharing this story is not to say that National are correct when they want to have a more efficient DHB, nor is it to say that Labour are correct when they say that we need to spend more on Healthcare.

    Only that perhaps all parties, including the Healthcare industries themselves, have had or still have a part to play.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

  8. #68
    Join Date
    4th June 2013 - 17:33
    Bike
    R1200GSA
    Location
    Kapiti
    Posts
    1,055
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I'm going to add a Wee Anecdote from a friend who works in a very similar capacity to what I do, but for the Health Industry (as a Government employee).

    Since we do very similar things, we often bitch about various Projects, the successes and failures therein etc.

    One such story was about the time my company tried to consolidate a number of back-end systems into one, spent something like $2,000,000 and never actually moved anything - was a total failure of a project.

    To which my friends regales me of a tale of a Project that they had been working on, sunk the better part of $14,000,000 into it, had gotten it to the point where they were just about to roll it out and deploy it. Then comes a change of Management, Scraps the entire thing etc. etc. The worst part was the look he gave me when he said that this is fair more common with Government run things.

    Point of sharing this story is not to say that National are correct when they want to have a more efficient DHB, nor is it to say that Labour are correct when they say that we need to spend more on Healthcare.

    Only that perhaps all parties, including the Healthcare industries themselves, have had or still have a part to play.
    Absolutely, big organisations be they in the public or private domain tend to chew through the $$ and have more scope for "waste"
    Nobody gets off the hook as far as I am concerned. When you spend a public $ then there is a duty of care to spend it effectively as possible.
    Effective spending is not about the cheapest solution, or even the most expensive one, its about the best solution. What is best will change with the context.
    National and indeed all neoliberal policy around public services seems to be primarily about cost cutting. That is not the same as quality or efficiency.
    Life is not measured by how many breaths you take, but how many times you have your breath taken away

  9. #69
    Join Date
    7th January 2014 - 14:45
    Bike
    Not a Hayabusa anymore
    Location
    Not Gulf Harbour Either
    Posts
    1,460
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    Absolutely, big organisations be they in the public or private domain tend to chew through the $$ and have more scope for "waste"
    Nobody gets off the hook as far as I am concerned. When you spend a public $ then there is a duty of care to spend it effectively as possible.
    Effective spending is not about the cheapest solution, or even the most expensive one, its about the best solution. What is best will change with the context.
    National and indeed all neoliberal policy around public services seems to be primarily about cost cutting. That is not the same as quality or efficiency.
    I agree almost entirely, the only point of discussion is I guess the perspective that you have around 'how do we deal with "Waste"' - I see that Neo-Liberal position and have some agreements with it (Some).

    I see the American argument and have some agreements with it (very few).

    I see the Labour argument and (this will come as a shock to some) also have some agreements with it (possibly more than the other 2 combined).

    It seems that there is some form of Balance not being met:

    Too much oversight and the wheels grind to a halt, nothing gets done and if by a miracle it does, it's out-of-date.
    Not enough oversight and Free-loaders and incompentents blow through cash without care or consequence.

    When I figure out the right level, I'm publish the paper on it, collect my Nobel Prize and be the world renowned expert on Healthcare Administration and spending.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

  10. #70
    Join Date
    4th June 2013 - 17:33
    Bike
    R1200GSA
    Location
    Kapiti
    Posts
    1,055
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I agree almost entirely, the only point of discussion is I guess the perspective that you have around 'how do we deal with "Waste"' - I see that Neo-Liberal position and have some agreements with it (Some).

    I see the American argument and have some agreements with it (very few).

    I see the Labour argument and (this will come as a shock to some) also have some agreements with it (possibly more than the other 2 combined).

    It seems that there is some form of Balance not being met:

    Too much oversight and the wheels grind to a halt, nothing gets done and if by a miracle it does, it's out-of-date.
    Not enough oversight and Free-loaders and incompentents blow through cash without care or consequence.

    When I figure out the right level, I'm publish the paper on it, collect my Nobel Prize and be the world renowned expert on Healthcare Administration and spending.
    Elections are not won by answering "it depends" instead a slogan or short term sentiment will swing things (where a swing happens, many of those who do vote I would posit, do not give how they vote a great deal of thought)

    Lets look at how our health system is run, 20 DHBs each with its own budgeting, assets, management, strategy, structure, infrastructure and so on. For a country this size with a population of 5 million, surely 20 administrative units is far too many? Well, it depends.
    This way each board can be responsive to local need and context. The solutions for large cities will not work for rural areas with lots of small towns and settlements. What are the demographics services are being provided for? The kind of services required and how they can be delivered will be different.

    BUT

    lets say we have a global pandemic and our country is facing a potentially disastrous impact on the health of its people. 20 DHBs is absolutely the LAST way we should be running what needs to be a national response. A centrally managed set of resources and rules will ensure what needs to be done for the whole country will in fact happen. Distribution of PPE anyone?

    As you say balance is needed, the recognition that some things just need to be handled centrally and require investment in capability and resource that might never actually happen but how buggered will we be if we do not?
    Life is not measured by how many breaths you take, but how many times you have your breath taken away

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •