Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 61

Thread: Roads don't cause crashes- bad driving behaviour does

  1. #31
    Join Date
    1st September 2007 - 21:01
    Bike
    1993 Yamaha FJ 1200
    Location
    Paradise
    Posts
    14,126
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by SaferRides View Post
    You don't tend to "get it wrong" when you know doing so will maim or kill you. Probably the same reason why people don't cut left hand corners.
    But they DO ... On a VERY regular basis.

    They are a good driver ... and it was an accident. NOT THEIR FAULT ... and they tell the attending Police Officer exactly that.

    In most cases a SINGLE vehicle accident (for want of a better [more PC .. ??] word ... if there is one).
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  2. #32
    Join Date
    1st September 2007 - 21:01
    Bike
    1993 Yamaha FJ 1200
    Location
    Paradise
    Posts
    14,126
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonez View Post
    I was almost taken out by a young lady drive the weekend before last on a gravel road. She didn't look EITHER way just drove straight out of the drive way. It was damn close. I had flash backs of 1986 when I was T-boned in a 50km zone in Waipakurau.
    Yep it happens ... and then they give YOU the finger ... go figure ...
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  3. #33
    Join Date
    2nd March 2018 - 15:32
    Bike
    1998 Yamaha R1
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    1,178
    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    But they DO ... On a VERY regular basis.

    They are a good driver ... and it was an accident. NOT THEIR FAULT ... and they tell the attending Police Officer exactly that.

    In most cases a SINGLE vehicle accident (for want of a better [more PC .. ??] word ... if there is one).
    I was meaning the median barriers. I expect most motorcyclists make a real effort to avoid them.

    There should be more emphasis on the importance of keeping left in road safety campaigns. I see far too many drivers, and motorcyclists, whose default road position on RH corners is over the centreline if they think nothing is coming.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    15th October 2009 - 17:33
    Bike
    2014 Honda NC750X
    Location
    Auckland
    Posts
    918
    Blog Entries
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by SaferRides View Post
    There should be more emphasis on the importance of keeping left in road safety campaigns. I see far too many drivers, and motorcyclists, whose default road position on RH corners is over the centreline if they think nothing is coming.
    Good luck with that, try turning left at any uncontrolled T intersection in suburban Auckland at the same time as someone is turning right into the same road, they’ll be on your side of the road (and expecting you to slow down to wait for them to complete their turn through your lane). Those that stick to their side of the road are the exception.
    Moe: Well, I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I...I can't compete with that stuff.
    - The Simpsons

  5. #35
    Join Date
    30th January 2004 - 11:00
    Bike
    Indian Scout
    Location
    In a happy place - Kapiti
    Posts
    2,281
    Quote Originally Posted by nerrrd View Post
    Good luck with that, try turning left at any uncontrolled T intersection in suburban Auckland at the same time as someone is turning right into the same road, they’ll be on your side of the road (and expecting you to slow down to wait for them to complete their turn through your lane). Those that stick to their side of the road are the exception.
    Yeah it was thinking about this sort of sloppy inconsiderate driving that seems to be everywhere these days that set me off with this thread. I ride the Paekakariki Hill a fair bit and it is shit scary for lazy corner cutters. Luckily you quickly learn which corners will be cut- ALL OF THEM. Funny 90% of them coming at me on my side of the road are in SUVs or Utes or white van man. Those vehicle types must have useless steering designs.

    Those of us with decades of riding under our belts have the advantage of a more developed six sense to be alert, scan the road and corners ahead, look at the surface condition, spot tell tale signs of a side road or driveway ahead and so on. It was for most of us the school of hard knocks but we survived (so far anyway). But I worry about young riders learning the skills to ride while sharing the road with this generation of selfish inconsiderate and lazy drivers.
    Happiness is a means of travel, not a destination

  6. #36
    Join Date
    1st September 2007 - 21:01
    Bike
    1993 Yamaha FJ 1200
    Location
    Paradise
    Posts
    14,126
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by SaferRides View Post
    I was meaning the median barriers. I expect most motorcyclists make a real effort to avoid them.

    There should be more emphasis on the importance of keeping left in road safety campaigns. I see far too many drivers, and motorcyclists, whose default road position on RH corners is over the centreline if they think nothing is coming.
    When you post
    Probably the same reason why people don't cut left hand corners.
    I wonder about your reasoning that they don't.

    Because they do ... and they should be making concerted efforts to avoid other things that might kill them. But it seems they don't.

    Even good drivers make mistakes ... watch the top level race drivers and riders ... it happens. but the roads are not (apparently) race track ... roads have far more things to hit if you go off the "Track" ...

    The median barriers are a known and visible item that no sane person would ride or drive into intentionally. And motorcyclists generally take great care around them. Few are suicidal enough to risk death by totally ignoring any risk element of the roadside furniture ... or the road layout .. anywhere.

    Most will tell you that they do take risks ... based on their skill and experience level ... and most get away with it. Increase the amount of experience and skill levels ... and bigger risks get taken. Again ... most get away with it.

    The MOST basic rule in the New Zealand road traffic legislation ... is learnt on day one of learning to ride or drive ... and that is KEEP LEFT.

    The biggest traffic rule moan and *555 complaint is about people failing to keep left. The second is slow (aisian) drivers ...

    And all the keep left signs should be another reminder ... but rider / driver convenience ... and low risk assessment ... seems to take precedence.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  7. #37
    Join Date
    4th December 2009 - 19:45
    Bike
    I Ride No More
    Location
    Wellington
    Posts
    278
    Quote Originally Posted by MD View Post
    Yeah it was thinking about this sort of sloppy inconsiderate driving that seems to be everywhere these days that set me off with this thread. I ride the Paekakariki Hill a fair bit and it is shit scary for lazy corner cutters. Luckily you quickly learn which corners will be cut- ALL OF THEM. Funny 90% of them coming at me on my side of the road are in SUVs or Utes or white van man. Those vehicle types must have useless steering designs.

    Those of us with decades of riding under our belts have the advantage of a more developed six sense to be alert, scan the road and corners ahead, look at the surface condition, spot tell tale signs of a side road or driveway ahead and so on. It was for most of us the school of hard knocks but we survived (so far anyway). But I worry about young riders learning the skills to ride while sharing the road with this generation of selfish inconsiderate and lazy drivers.
    Very good. I enjoyed your observations re (i) the Paekakariki Hill Road and (ii) SUV - Ute - White Van Man. Absolutely on the money.

    But even if we weren't discussing the Paekakariki Hill Road, can I make a few observations as well ?



    Our younger son "acquired" my car ( a separate story), so we're back to being a "one car" family again - and me being a passenger more often. So I get to watch the wife's driving (she is solely a car driver) plus that of various friends - and to contrast their driving styles with my own (being both a car driver and a motorcycle rider).

    Doing trips over the Rimutakas to the Wairarapa now and then, the wife invariably gives me the keys and says "you drive". Why ? Because "the road is narrow, and it twists and turns a lot", and "I always feel more comfortable when you drive the hill roads". Well, yes, the road does "twist and turn" a little, but there is little issue with the road width or its general condition.

    When (on the odd occasion) she has done the driving over that leg, she has often turned into right-hand corners "too early" and put a tyre across the white line. So, to me, part of the "issue" with corners seems to be with steering them more confidently.

    And I can't help feeling that this is due to car drivers generally not having to choose a "steering line" on approach, and not using a "vanishing point" methodology. I don't think that they are taught to do so during their formal driver training, and if so, I think that it is to their disadvantage.

    I make the contrast when driving the Rimutakas in our car vs when riding it on my motorcycle.

    Assume a blind right-hand bend, clean road conditions, and dual (LH and RH) wheel-tracks within my lane. Ignore difference in mass of vehicles, balance, traction, road camber, counter-steering for the moment.

    On the motorcycle, throughout the whole corner-turning exercise (approach, turn and exit), I'm always very conscious of the "line" that I'm going to steer. I will almost always be positioned in a "left hand wheel track" coming up to the bend, and as the "vanishing point" dictates, I will slow as needed, make my turn and exit.

    But I do find a right-hand corner to be a slightly different proposition when driving the car.

    Firstly, driving position and line.

    The car driver - sitting in the right-hand wheel position - always drives that line. No additional thinking is required. They will generally move off-line (left or right) only when compelled to (e.g. avoid a pot-hole or road debris). Whereas the motorcycle rider has learned to use the full width of the lane, and may choose to use a left-of-lane or centre-of-lane position (as opposed to staying in a right-of-lane position).

    Secondly, but maybe more important, vanishing point.

    I still use the "vanishing point" methodology when turning corners in the car.

    Two reasons:
    1. My speed is generally adjusted well prior to turn-in, and it makes me (comfortable to) position more towards the left-of-lane on corner entry.
    2. Turning my head helps me "time my turn-in" (even though I don't need to lean or to counter-steer).

    So I think it can make a positive difference when driving the car as well.

    I'll offer up a few other observations as well:

    1. My wife will not drive the Rimutakas at night. I realise it has no street lighting (and can be as black as the Ace of Spades at night), but how is it that I can manage to get us home in the dark ?

    Is it something to do with an appreciation of knowing when to turn into a corner (when all the usual reference points are not so visible) ?

    2. Both our sons have learned to drive on the hills of Lower Hutt, and in our area, there are several 180 degree bends. When learning to drive a car, these bends gave both sons some bother for a while. When I taught them to use the "vanishing point" (not discussed in any of their formal car driver training) - instead of just "looking straight ahead", suddenly those bends became "easy".

    They got their gear and entry speed nailed, and they started steering a safe line around those bends. Problem solved. Maybe the "old man" had a few clues after all ?

    3. When following car drivers, I still see too many drivers "seeming to be surprised" when they reach a well sign-posted corner (suddenly "hard on the brakes" and yet - when having brushed off their excess speed - they still "turn in far too early" and "cut the corner").

    I'm unsure whether it is laziness or lack of driving technique or some combination thereof, but can't help feeling that formal car driver training (for new drivers) could benefit from some content on steering line and vanishing point.

  8. #38
    Join Date
    24th November 2015 - 11:20
    Bike
    GSX-S1000GT/DR 650
    Location
    Blenheim and Welly
    Posts
    626
    Quote Originally Posted by MD View Post
    Yeah it was thinking about this sort of sloppy inconsiderate driving that seems to be everywhere these days that set me off with this thread. I ride the Paekakariki Hill a fair bit and it is shit scary for lazy corner cutters. Luckily you quickly learn which corners will be cut- ALL OF THEM. Funny 90% of them coming at me on my side of the road are in SUVs or Utes or white van man. Those vehicle types must have useless steering designs.

    Those of us with decades of riding under our belts have the advantage of a more developed six sense to be alert, scan the road and corners ahead, look at the surface condition, spot tell tale signs of a side road or driveway ahead and so on. It was for most of us the school of hard knocks but we survived (so far anyway). But I worry about young riders learning the skills to ride while sharing the road with this generation of selfish inconsiderate and lazy drivers.
    Lack of following distance is a big bugbear of mine. Just had a big bully boy ute following me at 100-105 Km/hr on SH1 heading into Blenheim today and when I rolled off at a junction he actually started undertaking me... Needless to say he got the required hand signal to tell him what I thought of his actions...

    All of this is totally independent of road design - Just a bully trying to overcome deficiencies in other areas...

  9. #39
    Join Date
    1st September 2007 - 21:01
    Bike
    1993 Yamaha FJ 1200
    Location
    Paradise
    Posts
    14,126
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by MD View Post
    But I worry about young riders learning the skills to ride while sharing the road with this generation of selfish inconsiderate and lazy drivers.
    After starting the motorcycle and / or car license program ... right at stage one ... after the basic handling stage ... a lecture on these simple facts on what to expect as a reality on our roads. Some may have already noticed.

    By my observations ... a very large portion of the national road toll is caused simply by failing to give way.

    Speed is often touted as the killer ... (and it certainly will not help in any accident situation) but usually it is just (for want of a better word) a factor in the accident. Not WHY it happened.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  10. #40
    Join Date
    1st September 2007 - 21:01
    Bike
    1993 Yamaha FJ 1200
    Location
    Paradise
    Posts
    14,126
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    1. My wife will not drive the Rimutakas at night. I realise it has no street lighting (and can be as black as the Ace of Spades at night), but how is it that I can manage to get us home in the dark ?

    Is it something to do with an appreciation of knowing when to turn into a corner (when all the usual reference points are not so visible) ?
    At night ... some people simply don't know where to look. You go where you look ... and the white line on the left edge of the road is the best place to watch. As long as you stay to the right of that left hand side line ... you'll still be on the road. On a bike or in a car. If you look at the headlights approaching ... odds are you'll head that way. The yellow signs tell you the shape of the corners (usually) and recommended speeds. Familiarity with the roads involved helps ... but you need the picture in your head of the corner layout and severity ... to match what you can actually see.

    The "Vanishing Point" at night (on corners) is your front bumper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    2. Both our sons have learned to drive on the hills of Lower Hutt, and in our area, there are several 180 degree bends. When learning to drive a car, these bends gave both sons some bother for a while. When I taught them to use the "vanishing point" (not discussed in any of their formal car driver training) - instead of just "looking straight ahead", suddenly those bends became "easy".

    They got their gear and entry speed nailed, and they started steering a safe line around those bends. Problem solved. Maybe the "old man" had a few clues after all ?
    Just the same as a motorcycle ... you go where you look.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    3. When following car drivers, I still see too many drivers "seeming to be surprised" when they reach a well sign-posted corner (suddenly "hard on the brakes" and yet - having brushed off their excess speed - they still "turn in far too early" and "cut the corner").
    It does help to note the recommended speed (on that sign) for that corner. Some degree of driving ability and experience helps too.

    Disregard the lack of either at your peril.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    I'm unsure whether it is laziness or lack of driving technique or some combination thereof, but can't help feeling that formal car driver training (for new drivers) could benefit from some content on steering line and vanishing point.
    A 10 star safety rated vehicle ... is recommended for these people. Don't overthink it.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  11. #41
    Join Date
    1st September 2007 - 21:01
    Bike
    1993 Yamaha FJ 1200
    Location
    Paradise
    Posts
    14,126
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Boy View Post
    ... All of this is totally independent of road design - Just a bully trying to overcome deficiencies in other areas...
    Nah ... with the time it takes to get them up to speed ... they are reluctant to button off.

    I like to piss them off by braking early.

    But thats just me ...
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  12. #42
    Join Date
    24th December 2012 - 21:49
    Bike
    Quiet plodder
    Location
    South Akl
    Posts
    2,259
    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Nah ... with the time it takes to get them up to speed ... they are reluctant to button off.

    I like to piss them off by braking early.

    But thats just me ...
    sounds good.

    I find a place to let them pass, often to accelerate directly into the cause of the slow traffic.
    sometimes it’s me being careful. I don’t need extra stress

    READ AND UDESTAND

  13. #43
    Join Date
    1st November 2005 - 08:18
    Bike
    F-117.
    Location
    Banana Republic of NZ
    Posts
    7,046
    The "road" is entirely neutral. It isn't dangerous.

    The skills of the "operator" are the primary cause of accidents, but gubbinment refuses to accept that fact.




    As for staying on the left side of the white line... Sadly we even see this on episodes of Top Gear, where the "drivers" fail to keep on one side of the road.
    TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”

  14. #44
    Join Date
    12th July 2003 - 01:10
    Bike
    Royal Enfield 650 & a V8 or two..
    Location
    The Riviera of the South
    Posts
    14,068
    Quote Originally Posted by george formby View Post
    Dunno about all riders getting the defensive message. I would guestimate that more than 50% of the riders I see up here, on our lovely, twisty roads have a centre line fixation. Sometimes I wonder if the road paint used is magnetic.
    Some think they're driving a slot car the way they straddle the centre-line..

    Head-ons would be a rarity if everybody would stick to their own side of the road, how hard can it be to keep left?

    And wear seatbetlts

    And not faff around with a bloody phone

    And...well you get the picture.

    Bring back the black & whites I say!
    Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
    " Life is not a rehearsal, it's as happy or miserable as you want to make it"

  15. #45
    Join Date
    12th July 2003 - 01:10
    Bike
    Royal Enfield 650 & a V8 or two..
    Location
    The Riviera of the South
    Posts
    14,068
    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Boy View Post
    Lack of following distance is a big bugbear of mine. Just had a big bully boy ute following me at 100-105 Km/hr on SH1 heading into Blenheim today and when I rolled off at a junction he actually started undertaking me... Needless to say he got the required hand signal to tell him what I thought of his actions...

    All of this is totally independent of road design - Just a bully trying to overcome deficiencies in other areas...

    I've been the unfortunate passenger of such people - and after suggesting dropping back got a "Oh, right" and they did drop back.

    Then a K or so down the road the gap once again closed up.

    some people are just unaware of their driving deficiencies.
    Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
    " Life is not a rehearsal, it's as happy or miserable as you want to make it"

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •