the clean two-stroke thread

[husaberg]

I was under the impression that DiTech almost drove Aprilia into bankruptcy when they mass-marketed a version that was still underdeveloped.

Sounds a lot like the story of the other Italian manufacturer that marketed a Di 2 stroke in the 1990's.

[eldog]

Mr Bucketracer, ....... everyone who comes up with new ideas (or even working concepts) and tries to explain them to others will get knocked back, because there are a lot of (wooses?) in this world who will not venture past the textbook or rulebook, (timid people who would never ever venture outside the square in anything) but who are prepared to ridicule those with enough courage to try, - often without actually having anything to offer instead!

Every inventor worth his salt has had to test the boundaries (at least to some extent and within the boundaries of common sense of course) in order to become successful
The biggest barriers are ..... the usual opposition from those who will not change and ..... the fear of failure or ridicule. - When you get past those barriers and don't give a stuff if others criticise you or your (reasonably sensible) ideas, then you're on your way!

Flettner just gets on with it and accepts the concept of a high failure rate in order to eliminate the stuff which won't work (tries every avenue)!

Ken's quote at the end of all his posts, is very inspirational!

this is all to familiar to me.

I have found over the years, no matter what or how you explain something, you cannot get through to those you are trying to communicate with. Often because they cannot believe what you propose will work. Then you get someone else or you do it, there will never be any recognition when it works.

great to see, different ideas and actual testing, being conducted here.

[ceci]

I was under the impression that DiTech almost drove Aprilia into bankruptcy when they mass-marketed a version that was still underdeveloped.

The DiTech has been used in four different engines: Peugeot (France), Gilera and Aprilia (Italy) and Suzuki (Japan), if that is not be successful, you will tell me.
Tell me what other system has been used in various brands of vehicles (apart from the creator)

[breezy]

husaberg,
, are the emissions in the 2 stroke engine always beyond the allowable current rules? does an engine ever comply within its usual rev range? any graphs or reliable figures available to show this visually?

[breezy]

.... whats required..

[Norman]

.... whats required..

As a range extender for a serial hybrid, what about a "Ryger" type with two optimized rpms, just as an example, optimized at 5000 and 7500 rpms (could engine design and so on be adopted for lower rpm?) And, using FTPI and catalyst with HC trap before main catalyst up in temp. As it is FTPI and not DI we can rule out PM. Pros AND cons, challenges with such a solution? Think 20-40 kW is needed..I do however feel a little bad about neglecting PM that is a problem in urban areas..In the background we are of course awaiting Flettners work and findings with his OP engine which I think must develop in the way and time Flettner has resources and time to do all the work required. Other developments that are interesting is of course if BRP is trying to develop an engine with rotating exhaust valves as per their patent, and also results from the Strange Developments two stroke engine. Other projects going on?

[Norman]

As a range extender for a serial hybrid, what about a "Ryger" type with two optimized rpms, just as an example, optimized at 5000 and 7500 rpms (could engine design and so on be adopted for lower rpm?) And, using FTPI and catalyst with HC trap before main catalyst up in temp. As it is FTPI and not DI we can rule out PM. Pros AND cons, challenges with such a solution? Think 20-40 kW is needed..I do however feel a little bad about neglecting PM that is a problem in urban areas..In the background we are of course awaiting Flettners work and findings with his OP engine which I think must develop in the way and time Flettner has resources and time to do all the work required. Other developments that are interesting is of course if BRP is trying to develop an engine with rotating exhaust valves as per their patent, and also results from the Strange Developments two stroke engine. Other projects going on?

Just wanted to add that one application for a range extender is BMW i3, and others..And yes, it mighy be a side track of what we usually like to discuss here..

[husaberg]

husaberg,
, are the emissions in the 2 stroke engine always beyond the allowable current rules? does an engine ever comply within its usual rev range? any graphs or reliable figures available to show this visually?

The rules are ever changing but as far as i know most emission are accelerating and decelerating and off powerband.
This is a brief overview i think.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...27868290910224

[WilDun]

this is all to familiar to me.

I have found over the years, no matter what or how you explain something, you cannot get through to those you are trying to communicate with. Often because they cannot believe what you propose will work. Then you get someone else or you do it, there will never be any recognition when it works.

great to see, different ideas and actual testing, being conducted here.

Uderstand? - UDERSTAND?

Anyway, - fact is, most people don't care! ..... they do not give a stuff about engines, motorcycles or any dirty smelly common rubbish like that - when there are much more important things in life. (like being seen and being fashionable!)

So is it any wonder that in (our NZ) sports news we get all the glitz and glamour of F1 (with the race details and results somewhere in there as well) ..... the only time bikes ever get a mention in the sports news is when there is an almighty crash! - like last weekend in Austria.

No one gives a stuff, or knows the difference between a two stroke and a four stroke - so we, or our opinions are not really relevant to this world! - only relevant here!....... it's all about today's "sensational" world unfortunately!

HUSA,
Why bother with all these boring details? - when tomorrow it'll be different - they will just keep raising the bar! - as soon as they see us catching up, then up it will go again - We are dealing with unreasonable "people" here who do not understand us or care! - they are really just "computers" programmed to stay ahead - they are not people! ...... but they are our masters!

Here is a compelling reason why two strokes should not be abandoned, or have to shoulder so much responsiblity for air pollution on roads, streets and waterways! (as they are having to do at the moment!). - nor should motorcycles in general have to share the blame to the same extent as the bloody boneheaded morons doing burnouts in cars!

[ “The latest research is indicating that non-tailpipe PM emissions are now 55-60% of vehicle emissions and this proportion will continue to grow with electrification of the fleet,” said Professor Frank Kelly of King’s College London, chair of the UK government’s Committee on the Medical Effects of Air Pollutants.

The committee estimates that between 28,000 and 36,000 deaths are caused by air pollution each year in the UK. Strong correlations between air pollution and increased mortality mean that this figure can be given with some confidence, although the uncertainty is reflected in the range of values. ]

But here is the whole thing - sorry, I've gone and got myself into the details after all! :-
https://www.imeche.org/news/news-art...-air-pollution

[eldog]

Uderstand? - UDERSTAND?

you have been the only one who has READ it.


It also shows that the brain is quite adept at 'guessing' what it sees and creates shortcuts to get us through.

Great to see the effort being made to 2S evolution

[WilDun]

you have been the only one who has READ it.


It also shows that the brain is quite adept at 'guessing' what it sees and creates shortcuts to get us through.

Great to see the effort being made to 2S evolution

Yes, ......All except mine!!

Oh and "evolution" isn't enough ....... needs to be "revolution"!

[husaberg]

HUSA,
Why bother with all these boring details? - when tomorrow it'll be different - they will just keep raising the bar! - as soon as they see us catching up, then up it will go again - We are dealing with unreasonable "people" here who do not understand us or care! - they are really just "computers" programmed to stay ahead - they are not people! ...... but they are our masters!

but i love details...........
i agree with the premise that the emoissions need to be sorted just not the targeting of the fun bikes and competition bikes where the polution caused is minimal.
Also some stufff like the remivalal of lead likely resulted in more noxious and harmfull pollution from the witches brews that followed it.

[WilDun]

We don't need fine details here right now - that's for, lawyers, nit-pickers, bean counters etc - maybe even ESE guys! (and Husa!) - but really, any half baked clown (including me) can see that there needs to be radical change first!

Fact is,we overdid the BHP/Speed thing, so let's turn back, get the basic changes set in the ball park first - lets forget about high power and racing (just for a little while).

When we have achieved that, set those finicky detail guys loose to get everything just right and we might end up with something useable on our roads!

Remember the old steam guys (when they lost their pride and joy to diesels) - they died muttering "won't work if it aint driven by steam" ..... lets not go that way - lets just move on!

[Frits Overmars]

Just wanted to add that one application for a range extender is BMW i3, and others.

And others, indeed Norman.

Seriously, I would buy an E-car today if I could have an 800 km range, and charging points without waiting lists everywhere.

[WilDun]

And others, indeed Norman.
Seriously, I would buy an E-car today if I could have an 800 km range, and charging points without waiting lists everywhere.

Yes, times change.