Trump - 4 more years of this at least...

[TheDemonLord]

Now I'm intrigued! You know the Seuss' estate and publishing people personally?

I don't need to - there's enough circumstantial evidence to make a reasonable conclusion.

There once was a demonlord, who while at "work" would get rather bored. Now he liked a good Seuss story, almost as much as a cashed up pro brexit tory.
So while fending off another sugi zinger, he would flatten that with an overweight democrat opera singer!
When work was over, it was on the bike for a blat, looking suspiciously like a modern day cat in an odd shaped hat.
Who is this cat in an odd shaped hat, riding the bike that goes blat, blat, blat - why that that would be the guy on the hunt for a questionable stat. Or something like that - that cheshire grinning cat

Are we doing Poetry?

Okay:

Hello all, I am Sugilite.
I'm back in NZ, on an airline flight
Occasionally upon politics I bite
I'm not on the left but neither the right
When people upset me I ignore them out of sight
This KB forum can sometimes be a plight.
What's this? Covid? That gives me a Fright!
And now I'm down in the Dump
I hate Donald Trump
He gives me the Hump!
And so for relief I poke the DemonLord
For I know he will reply, because he is Bored.
And things that he says, well they leave me Floored!
Now on this new issue, he makes claims I dismissed
For with DL, it's always those pesky old Socialists
and despite all the signs that they're nouveau Communists
Such as we are trained Marxists
and here is our protest symbol, a fist.
Au Contraire, these counter-points leave me pissed
And so I will ping-pong with the one called Bonez
Do we love or hate? we can't tell from the Moans
And so with this poem, that's inflated like loans
Shall be finished off - as I hate typing on phones.

[Bonez]

I don't need to - there's enough circumstantial evidence to make a reasonable conclusion.



Are we doing Poetry?

Okay:

Hello all, I am Sugilite.
I'm back in NZ, on an airline flight
Occasionally upon politics I bite
I'm not on the left but neither the right
When people upset me I ignore them out of sight
This KB forum can sometimes be a plight.
What's this? Covid? That gives me a Fright!
And now I'm down in the Dump
I hate Donald Trump
He gives me the Hump!
And so for relief I poke the DemonLord
For I know he will reply, because he is Bored.
And things that he says, well they leave me Floored!
Now on this new issue, he makes claims I dismissed
For with DL, it's always those pesky old Socialists
and despite all the signs that they're nouveau Communists
Such as we are trained Marxists
and here is our protest symbol, a fist.
Au Contraire, these counter-points leave me pissed
And so I will ping-pong with the one called Bonez
Do we love or hate? we can't tell from the Moans
And so with this poem, that's inflated like loans
Shall be finished off - as I hate typing on phones.

EXCELENT TDL

[sugilite:Me]

I don't need to - there's enough circumstantial evidence to make a reasonable conclusion.
Hello all, I am Sugilite.
I'm back in NZ, on an airline flight
Occasionally upon politics I bite
I'm not on the left but neither the right
When people upset me I ignore them out of sight
This KB forum can sometimes be a plight.
What's this? Covid? That gives me a Fright!
And now I'm down in the Dump
I hate Donald Trump
He gives me the Hump!
And so for relief I poke the DemonLord
For I know he will reply, because he is Bored.
And things that he says, well they leave me Floored!
Now on this new issue, he makes claims I dismissed
For with DL, it's always those pesky old Socialists
and despite all the signs that they're nouveau Communists
Such as we are trained Marxists
and here is our protest symbol, a fist.
Au Contraire, these counter-points leave me pissed
And so I will ping-pong with the one called Bonez
Do we love or hate? we can't tell from the Moans
And so with this poem, that's inflated like loans
Shall be finished off - as I hate typing on phones.

Nice effort mate, just a handful of points off for no Dr Seuss stylz

[sugilite:Me]

I don't need to - there's enough circumstantial evidence to make a reasonable conclusion.

Over 60 lost trials for Trumps failed attempt at circumnavigating the election results, but still not enough evidence for you.
A wisp of circumstantial evidence on Dr Seuss books being cancelled by radical dems and BOOM a reasonable conclusion can be made.
Classy mate

[TheDemonLord]

Over 60 lost trials for Trumps failed attempt at circumnavigating the election results, but still not enough evidence for you.
A wisp of circumstantial evidence on Dr Seuss books being cancelled by radical dems and BOOM a reasonable conclusion can be made.
Classy mate

Different standards of Proof.

[Bonez]

Over 60 lost trials for Trumps failed attempt at circumnavigating the election results, but still not enough evidence for you.
A wisp of circumstantial evidence on Dr Seuss books being cancelled by radical dems and BOOM a reasonable conclusion can be made.
Classy mate

It was 59 out of 60 numbnuts. You really should do your research before you post shit.

[sugilite:Me]

Different standards of Proof.

Evidently so!

[F5 Dave]

Ah, Circumstantial Evidence.

Read; - making a first opinion based on your prejudices, and vehemently denying any evidence to the contrary whilst embracing anecdotal stories, no matter how flimsy.

Bit sad really.


He lost because he was an incompetent cunt, so bad that even a slug like Biden could beat him. Just face it.

And no I can't read your response, but I'll assume it to be ridiculous and ill founded

[Bonez]

Ah, Circumstantial Evidence.

Read; - making a first opinion based on your prejudices, and vehemently denying any evidence to the contrary whilst embracing anecdotal stories, no matter how flimsy.

Bit sad really.


He lost because he was an incompetent cunt, so bad that even a slug like Biden could beat him. Just face it.

And no I can't read your response, but I'll assume it to be ridiculous and ill founded

OH! the fucken irony

You KB Knitting Circle Ladys have been doing that for the last five years.

[TheDemonLord]

So, I'm going to preface this with - lots of things in here I agree with, so for the sake of attempted Brevity, I'm going to omit them.

English Terminology
[I did notice that you used the word "falsehood" in your post.
1. Is that the same as a "lie", but just a little more up-market ? e.g. I might "lie", but Boris or Rees Mogg would "perpetrate a falsehood" ?.
2. Or is it more like a "low fat" lie ? You can make more of them in one sitting (Parliament), and you don't feel so guilty ?
3. What do you call some-one who "perpetrates a falsehood"? ]

All Politicians Lie, or least, tell the truth from their perspective - however the overall claim of 'if we leave the EU, we don't have to pay the members fee' IMO was true, the ancillary parts of 'we will spend it all on the NHS' - well, that had the faint whiff of Bullshit about it.

Claims Made
It was probably within subsequent stages (e.g. the Transition period leading to UK Parliament signing of Brexit intent in 2019, and during the Brexit Agreement negotiation phase in 2020) that I find UK claims and behaviour to have been most puzzling e.g.

So before I whip through the below - There's 2 points I'm going to quickly raise:

1: With 2020 being the year that is was, Many things - Brexit included were overshadowed by the Covid
2: There is still a lot of deeply held opposition to Brexit within the Civil Service - Bureaucrats like Bureaucracy.

Supposed Brexit Benefits
- Farage and the Brexit Party in June 2019 claiming that there would be a Stg 200 bln "Brexit dividend". This later appeared to include assumptions re the distribution of the Stg 39 bln dues mentioned earlier, the scrapping of a Stg 14 bln foreign aid budget, and cancellation of the UK HS1 high-speed rail project - approx Stg 80-100 bln).

If memory serves on this one - but HS2 (which is the contentious one, HS1 is already built I think) and the Foreign Aid Budget both have ties to EU Policy - I'm not sure if this is explicit legislation or one of the many 'Suggestions' which Member states are expected to abide by. Leaving the EU means that HS2 could be scrapped.

Supposed Ease of Concluding a UK-EU Agreement
- That it would be "the easiest trade deal in history". That Brexit Agreement negotiation would be quite "rapid", and that drafting and signing of the Brexit Agreement would be completed within 11 months (by Christmas 2020) "as most of the work has already been done".
- The EU has never negotiated a trade deal with another party in such a short time (e.g. the EU-Canada FTA required seven years to complete).

The theory behind why the Trade deal should be the easiest in history is sound - namely that at the point of exiting the EU, Britain and the EU have perfect regulatory alignment - which is usually one of the sticking point of a Trade Deal. However many Pro-Brexiteers would usually add in the caveat that this is all dependent on the EU negotiating in Good Faith - something which I myself don't believe they've done - mainly on the back that there are other Nations who are looking to see how Britain does from Brexit, and so the EU has a vested interest in Brexit being a failure for Britain and a success for the EU, lest other unhappy Member states decide to leave.

Ease of Trade Movement Across UK - EU Borders
- That there will be no barriers to UK - EU trade ("frictionless trade") due to a new high tech Customs solution to be introduced by the UK ("no forms, no checks, no barriers"). Which has since failed to perform up to expectation.

My understanding here is that Goods coming into the UK are fine, but the delay is for Goods exiting the UK, entering the EU - see earlier point about the EU having a vested interest in Brexit being a failure for my perspective on this. That said, I think it's also fair to say that with such a massive change, there will be initial issues to be sorted and with the post-Covid world these are being exasperated.

- That there would be little impact upon the Irish "Good Friday" Agreement governing the Northern Ireland / Eire border.

I think it's important to be clear that the UK said it would not put up any borders in Ireland. If the EU requires Ireland to put a border with Northern Ireland, then that's an issue for Ireland and the EU to fight about - obviously the last thing anyone wants is a return to the Troubles.

Political Integrity of the UK
- That the UK Union would be made "stronger" by Brexit (despite the predominant "Remain" vote for both Scotland and Northern Ireland).

Scotland had Indyref, they choose to remain, and Northern Ireland was primarily motivate by the above fear of an Irish Border. However currently Scotland has the SNP in power and well, the less said about them the better.

Negotiation of Other FTA's in Parallel
- That the UK would use the Transition Period (up to start of UK-EU Brexit negotiation) to negotiate and conclude FTA's with other third parties (such as the UK colonies). These seem to have been few and far between.

Pretty much Covid was the culprit here I feel - I know that Aus, NZ and the US (at least under Trump) were all keen for a Trade Deal, but everything in the UK pretty much stopped and focused on Covid - and I'll be honest there are many things that the Tories should have been doing AS WELL as Covid during that time - such as Boris defending the statues of Winston Churchill, so it's not like this is just a Brexit thing where the Focus has lapses.

Industrial and Financial Migration
- That the UK economy was still "strong" over the 4-5 years of the Transition and Agreement Negotiation periods. By end of 2019, the UK had already suffered a Stg 70 bln financial hit.
That this was not a concern, despite the fact that: (i) many major industrial groups were already moving and re-establishing in Ireland or the EU (ii) major car firms - such as Honda and Nissan - planned to cease UK operation due to their likely inability to operate JIT manufacturing (iii) many banks and financial instiutions domiciled in London (the City) started migrating parts of their physical operation and their trading activity to the EU (e.g. Frankfurt).

If memory serves the EU had also suffered similar financial issues in the time period - and that the UK downturn wasn't as severe as the one suffered by those using the Euro.

In regards to businesses moving or looking to move - Big Business doesn't like change, and certainly putting several eggs in several baskets isn't unwise - I think time will tell on this - ultimately if too many business start to move their operations, the UK government would be free from EU regulations to offer incentives for them to stay. I'm skipping the next paragraph since I feel that my reply is here is also suited to it.

Fisheries
- That while the UK would regain control over its fisheries (and likely choose to limit quota to EU fishing firms from Norway, Denmark, Netherlands and France), this would be a "boon' to the UK. Despite it only contributing about 1.5% to GDP.
- That this seemed to ignore the facts that (i) most of the UK fish processing was occurring within EU processing plants - continuity? (ii) the UK home fishing fleet had been depleted significantly since the 1970's, and did not have either the ships or the manpower to be able to exploit the increased quota.

So I happen to have Relatives that live in what would be considered 'Fishing villages' and have holidayed there regularly - the Damage done to the local economies by the CFP has been immense, it may be a small percent of the overall GDP, but the key factor for them is where that GDP is located - most of those seaside towns have 2 sources of income: Fish (which is an all-year round thing) and the Tourist season - As the Fishing income declined, so to did the regional economy, leading to less investment and the places starting to look shabby, this impacted the tourist Pounds and it's really been bad for them.

I'm also disappointed in how much the Tories gave to the EU, I'd have been perfectly happy with a parking one QE Class Aircraft carrier on the Western approaches and another off the coast of Gibraltar and telling the Spanish and French fishing fleets that there will be no warning shots across the bow.

The other thing that is causal to this is that traditionally British caught fish (Cod, Haddock etc.) were the backbone of the Fish and Chips takeaway market - which aren't processed in the EU, the decline of the catch has lead to knock-on price increases here.

This is one area of Brexit where IMO the benefit will be significant, not so much to the wider UK (although Cheaper Takeaways - woot!) but to the specialized areas that rely on this - it will be huge.

[TheDemonLord]

5. The EU was allowing too many immigrants in.
- Supposedly due to the fear that Eastern and Southern European workers were depressing wages of UK workers. In addition, large numbers of ME and African people had been leaving their home countries (due to war) and flooding into the EU since at least 2015.

6. The UK could implement a more rational immigration system.
- That the UK would benefit from introducing its own "points based" system, where it could better limit immigration to more skilled workers (not economic or political migrants) and to those who spoke English (better).

I wanted to touch on this separately: where I grew up in the UK was very close to some very working class areas, there was some nice areas - and there was also some absolute shit-holes. Consequently I know from first hand quite a bit about the make-up and wages that these predominantly blue-collar families had.

When I last went back to the UK to visit, I stopped by where I grew up - bearing in mind it had been only 10 or so years since I was last there. I can assure you, I noticed the difference, instead of hearing the local accent (which is very VERY pronounced) I was hearing various Slav languages (Polish, Ukranian etc.) Speaking to some old friends - I heard the same stories - Wages didn't rise, whilst the cost of everything else did. Tradies (Plasterers, Plumbers etc.) who before had enjoyed a Comfortable lifestyle - certainly not racking in the Cash, but enough to own a house and have a Nice 5 YO Car etc. were now struggling, they simply couldn't compete with the imported Labour. For the Blue-Collar areas, their local Economy and society had Radically altered and in a short space of time. Add to that they had imported certain types of Crime - now I'll be clear, before these areas were no saints - lots and LOTS of low-level crime - Theft, Bar Fights, Graffiti etc. however some of the migrants imported different types of Crime, Crimes that were seen, by the pre-existing criminals as 'Beyond the pail'

But here's the kicker - in the nice areas, everything was much the same as it was when I left, the Middle Class types were doing just fine, not much change in the local Demographics, Salaries were keeping pace with the cost of living. Even with the fact that there were French, German people living and working there under the EU rules. No issues.

It really was a very stark and poignant image of one of the Driving forces behind Brexit. If a German engineer decides to move to the UK - in a highly specialized field - no one cares, in fact it's a benefit to the UK. When 20 Poles come to the UK because they can earn 3 times in the UK what they do in Poland in Blue Collar jobs - it impacts those working class communities hard.

And the difference is - for every German who wants to come to the UK, there's probably an Englishman who wants to go to Germany, whereas no one from the Working Class communities wanted to go to Poland.

In regards to Middle Eastern and African Migration into the UK - Just a look at Knife Crime in London tells you all that you need to know - Primarily it's Economic Migrants, who are young, Military Aged Men, coming for an Adventure and wanting to bypass the Immigration process that they would never pass.

Very few people in the UK would have problems with Women and Children or entire Families who were escaping a War from seeking Asylum. What we see however is it's mostly young men (who are leaving 3rd world countries that aren't experiencing a current conflict) and then when they get here - they do things like Burn down the Barracks they are being housed in whilst their applications are being sorted.

Add to that things like Rotherham etc. and you have all the anti-migrant sentiment you need.

[pritch]

Funny that.

https://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/...ep-punching-it

[pritch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aMqYNKUTp4

[Viking01]

DemonLord,

Thanks for replies #2815 and 2816. Always interested to hear other perspectives.

I'll have another read through them, and may come back to you on a few points.

Cheers,
Viking

[pritch]

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/03/19/p...eak/index.html