Anorak
The simplest one was Trump wasn't going to let Ukraine into Nato, thereby doing what Putin wanted and generally being his sycophant.Originally Posted by sugilite
I dont like the guy i think he should be executed, but where were you when Trump said the exact same things?
Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken
The Majestic Metal Wizard
See, I have a different opinion on what you've described - firstly RINO has a long history that preceedes Trump - so when Trump says 'Do this or you aren't a real Republican' - rather than calling it a Dictatorship - we have to look at the issues that caused the division in the first place.
Things like being opposed to the woke agenda - that IS a republican value (Individual Freedom and Liberty vs Collectivist ideology)
Things like being opposed to Federal/Government intervention - that IS a republican value (Individual freedom again)
In my personal estimation, even looking at the likes of National here and the Conservatives in the UK, the number of actual Conservatives is probably around 10-20% of the party. By Conservatives, I mean people that actually understand the underlying core ideals. Too many Conservative Politicians think that Conservatism is just doing the same thing that we've always done because we are conserving it. Case in point - Nationals leadership over the last few years - not one of them has thus-far articulated what the Conservative vision is for the Individual, the Community and the Country.
Getting back to Trump - he knew that a house divided would fall, so yeah he made sure everyone was onboard with the plan - is that Dictatorial or good leadership? Probably a bit of both to be fair...
But getting back to the values - what did Trump want?
Lower taxes
Less regulation
reduction in illegal immigration
No more interventionist wars (this is one you could argue falls outside of Conservative thought)
Trade tariffs with countries that don't share the same safety standards as the US (Another non-conservative view)
fighting against Marxist derived theories and nonsense
Investing in Infrastructure (This one you could argue that a strict republican would see this as the purview of the state and private sector)
There's probably a few more I'm missing - but the key parts are in line with the Republican small government, individualist, British Liberal tradition.
If someone like Ron De Santis was to take over the Republican party - that wouldn't be (as far as policy goes) a massive departure from Trump and nor would be against Conservative Ideals (Individual Choice, Individual Liberty)
I actually avoid Fox, for much the same reason I avoid CNN. What I have seen from right wing media is people saying that Putin has played the West, Biden is incompetent, Biden's afghanistan failure indicate to Russia the US was no longer a threat, Putin is a Mastermind etc. etc.
Putin is a Judo master and an ex-KGB officer - it's not a case of being scared, but I think it's a case of he doesn't pick a battle where he hasn't predicted the outcome. He knows exactly what the Democrats/NATO/UN will do. Whereas Trump - who knew what Trump would do?
But the fact is - Crimea happened under Obama and Ukraine happened under Biden - and whilst I agree that there are many other factors - you cannot deny those two.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
The Majestic Metal Wizard
So, let me get this straight.
You want us to believe that Putin wanted Ukraine in NATO, so he could invade Ukraine to prevent them from joining NATO?
Not only that - this didn't happen under Trump's watch, it happened under Biden - so by your own logic, Biden is the one doing what Putin wanted and is his Sycophant.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
Forum whore
No, Putin didnt want Ukraine in NATO. Trump did as he was told and didn't let Ukraine into NATO. But it was more than just Trump or Biden. "NATO has also made clear that having “unresolved external territorial disputes” weighs against being admitted, a consideration that gives Putin an edge, since Russian forces occupy internationally recognized parts of Georgia (Abkhazia and South Ossetia) and Ukraine (Crimea). ... Officially, NATO stands by its 2008 pledge to admit Georgia and Ukraine once they meet the criteria, with no consensus on when that might be. Some NATO members, including Poland and Baltic states Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania, would sign up Ukraine tomorrow if they could. But Germany and France in particular insist that as long as Russian troops are in Ukraine, membership is not going to happen.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ares-quicktake
it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
(PostalDave on ADVrider)
Anorak
Trump even wanted to leave NATO
Nato let the Ukraine downDonald Trump expressed interest in withdrawing from the organization during his 2016 presidential campaign. The New York Times reported in 2019 that a year earlier, he had already mentioned several times privately that he wanted the United States to leave NATO. Such concerns led the House of Representatives in January 2019, to pass the NATO Support Act (H.R. 676), confirming Congress' support for NATO and prohibiting Trump from potentially withdrawing from NATO. On December 11, 2019, the Senate's Foreign Relations Committee passed a bill to be put in front of Congress which would require Congressional approval for American withdrawal from NATO.
Trump lifted sanctions against Putin's supportersince the spring of 2008, the United States and the rest of NATO have promised publicly to bring Ukraine, as well as the smaller and even more remote country of Georgia, into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. By this pledge, we would have the same obligation to defend faraway lands in eastern Europe and western Asia as to defend Germany, Canada or our own territory from hypothetical attack.
The House of Representatives voted overwhelmingly on Thursday to block the Trump administration from lifting sanctions on a Russian oligarch with deep ties to Vladimir Putin.
The effort, a joint resolution of disapproval, would overturn the Treasury Department’s December decision to ease sanctions on companies tied to Oleg Deripaska, who was sanctioned last year as part of a broader congressional push to punish Moscow for interfering in the 2016 presidential election.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...ctions-1108939The Trump administration has lifted sanctions on three firms linked to Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska, an ally of President Vladimir Putin.
Curbs on aluminium giant US Rusal, En+ Group and JSC EuroSibEnergo were lifted after Mr Deripaska ceded control.
The oligarch has been linked to the probe into alleged Russian interference in US elections, and Democrats wanted the sanctions to continue.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47023004
Trump instead of helping the Ukraine tried to bully them into pursuing his vendetta against the Bidens.
Remember how he threatened them with withdrawing assistance leading to his first impeachment.
Zelensky asks Trump for an increase in military aid — specifically, to purchase more Javelin anti-tank missiles, useful in Ukraine’s ongoing conflict with Russian-backed separatists in its east.
Trump responds by saying, “I would like you to do us a favor though.”
The favor turns out to be about two investigations Trump would like Ukraine to conduct: one about a bizarre and unfounded theory about Ukrainian possession of a Democratic email server, the other about the Biden family’s allegedly corrupt dealings with a Ukrainian prosecuton
he context for the call is important too. According to a Washington Post report, a week before phoning Zelensky, who had just assumed office, Trump ordered chief of staff Mick Mulvaney to suspend $400 million worth of US military aid to Ukraine (the aid was unlocked in September). So you have a new leader of a country locked in conflict with much more powerful Russia speaking to one of its principal international benefactors, which has recently suspended military aid.
After a few pleasantries early in the call, Trump brings up this military aid unprompted. He goes out of his way to compare US assistance to EU aid to Ukraine. “I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time,” he tells Zelensky. “Much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are.”
Biden and Nato let the ukraine down by not admitting the Ukrine under urgency to NATO
Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken
The Majestic Metal Wizard
This is like one half of one third of one quarter of the actual truth.
Trump said (on numerous occassions) that he was tired of the US footing the NATO bill, with other countries not honoring their defence spend commitments as per their NATO agreements.
In particular he saw other countries spending less on their defence budget because they were allied with the US and should anything happen to them, they would expect the US to come and 'rescue' them (sound familiar in NZ? No Combat air force?)
It's like you're a member of a Country Club, you always pay your membership, other people are also members, but they aren't up-to-date with their dues and somehow, you still get lumped with the bar tab. You might eventually decide to leave the Country Club rather than subsidising everyone else's socialising.
Or at least - threaten to leave if the other members don't start paying their membership fees.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
The Majestic Metal Wizard
Okay - Let me take everything on face value:
Trump did what Putin wanted and simply didn't allow Ukraine into NATO = No Russian invasion and no rise in Russian aggression.
Biden, supposedly 'going toe-to-toe with Putin' (Biden quote, and in a physical fight, Putin would destroy most world leaders) and 'Standing up to Putin' still doesn't allow Ukraine into NATO but does allow a Russian invasion and an increase in Russian aggression.
Even if everything you say is true - Trump looks like someone attempting to keep world peace, prevent WW3 and stop unnecessary bloodshed and Biden looks about as competent a Military Leader as he did during the Afghanistan withdrawal.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
Forum whore
Putin got what he wanted, Ukraine is not in NATO and Putin still invades? Almost like 1938 again, Germany claims and gets, Sudetenland, Chamberlain (Peace in our time) accedes, Germany takes that as "we can do what we like" and invades Poland, WWII happens. Putin has raised the stakes a lot higher by putting nuclear forces on high alert. Would not be surprised to see wiser heads in Russia prevail and Putin gets removed
it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
(PostalDave on ADVrider)
The Majestic Metal Wizard
Sure, but Who in your scenario is Chamberlain?
Biden or Trump? In order for it to be Trump, there would have had to have been Military action by Russia during his presidency. Biden on the other hand...
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
Geriatric hoon
Impeachment was still serious. Trump is forever disgraced as the only president ever to be impeached twice. If he gets elected again in 2024 he could even rack up a few more. There's a new crime every day.
Last edited by onearmedbandit; 3rd March 2022 at 19:54.
There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop
Geriatric hoon
Right wing nutjobs banging on about freedom is pure propaganda. The "land of the free" has the biggest imprisoned population on the planet, many have not been found guilty of any crime.
Considering the amount of noise they make about freedom the US doesn't even rate that high. In the 2022 International Freedom Index USA ranks fifteenth. They aren't even top 10.
There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop
Kiwibiker
The last lot of Rino calls came from some repubs calling out trrump for inspiring the march/riots of people trying to stop the certification process - disrupting democratic elections on the approved conservitive values list is it?
I've seen some of the latest CPAC footage of sooooooooo many repubs saying Trump was cheated out of the election despite no evidence - undermining fair and free elections also approved conservative values?
I do look at fox for the comedy of the comments section. The left wing comment sections are also comedy, especially when the supporters are saying exactly the same things about the other side. I cancelled my last subscription to the left wing media just the other day. Coincidentally, over the last 24 hours, fox has actually read the room in terms of how much sympathy the Ukraine is getting, and are now resuming their more traditional "Russians bad" dialog. Their advertising intake must have started taking a hit.
I'm not entirely sure Putin is getting the win he had calculated, time will tell I guess. I feel Putin actually left USA largely alone in the Trump years, as Trump himself was spectacularly successful in sowing the seeds of discontent and hatred far better than putin could do himself. Case in point, the thought of protestors marching on the capital to stop the election results being certified would of been unthinkable in any other modernish presidency, yet under trump, hardly surprising.
The Majestic Metal Wizard
Here's the thing - if there hadn't been a major change in the well-established Voting procedures in a number of States (and especially ones which may have violated the State constitution) then we wouldn't be having this conversation.
And it isn't like we haven't got a precedent for Mail-In voting being a cause for concern (Cough GWB Election and the Florida results Cough).
I've said it before - there's a LOT of statistical anomalies. That's not 'No Evidence'. It's just not high enough to meet the standard of 'Beyond all reasonable doubt'.
Fox is as Fox does - congrats on the subscription cancellation
Sure the Trump presidency was unusual, but at least half the blame has to come from the Media and the Democrats with their continued Russian Hoax and other assorted attacks. If the Media hadn't acted like a Jilted crazy ex-GF, then perhaps the division wouldn't have been so bad.
I agree Putin left Trump alone - whether that's because you think that Putin saw what was happening and decided to 'never interrupt the enemy when they are making a mistake' or because you agree with my perspective that Trump is/was an Unknown and his unpredictability meant that Putin wasn't confident in the outcome he would achieve to make a move or you subscribe to some other theory - I still get to sit here and gloat 'Didn't happen under Trump'.
As for the first part - It's a fair call, at the moment - things are all up in the air - one thing I am certain of, when things go back to normal, Putin will have gotten something that he wanted.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
The Majestic Metal Wizard
To be honest though, I'd take a Constitution and a limitation of Government powers any day of the week at this point. It's good to see that our High Court found some principles (and some Balls) to say that the Government mandate was illegal.
Sadly, I don't think I will ever live to see the day when the Government suffers even remotely comparable consequences for breaking the Law as the Citizenry does.
I don't know how or if the Freedom index takes that into account - but I'm going on a hunch that it doesn't.
Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress
Anorak
some other facts
Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken
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