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Thread: Death toll on the roads is virtually identical to 2019

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by jellywrestler View Post
    all roading offences, they do speed as it's backed my a machine, no sitting in court for hours waiting to appear in front of the judge when someone challenges your 'judgement' on the offence etc. they should put cameras in the cars, record the offence on the road, ticket people and have the video evidence to back it up, then the coppers on the road will actually want to deal with all offences rather than the easy one
    And if the ticket (even just a speed infringement ticket) goes to court ... the Cop that issued the ticket has to be in court too.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeeper View Post
    What changes would you suggest? NZTA and AT are full of idiots as far as I can see with respect to traffic management and planning.

    Driving license should not be perpetual. A refresher every 10 years at renewal should include at least some sort of testing. If the driver can provide evidence of attending a training course, this could be exempted. But then do we even have such courses available for drivers? I know about the rider training courses. Why doesn't ACC sponsors such courses for drivers?
    Oh I reckon there's plenty of clever folks at NZTA & AT, just a limit to what they can make happen within their constraints. Politics gets in the way. The driver licensing reform bill sitting in a politicians bottom drawer just one example of that...

    ACC has plenty of good intentions, the Ride Forever courses are awesome, but getting enough riders to partake is the hurdle. Talk to any SCU member, the same basic stuff gets done wrong over and over.
    So without a compelling reason to get a driver to partake in any post licence training, can't blame ACC for not offering something very few actually want to do.
    There's a defensive driving course for existing licence holders that AA run as an example, but it's somewhat basic and judging by how few of them are run, not enough folks wanting to do them.

    Perhaps being forced to attend traffic school instead of paying a fine might bring about a result?


    Quote Originally Posted by malcy25 View Post
    How's about actual policing, rather than speed management.
    The perception of enforcement being lacking, other than speed, is one of my bugbears as well. The basics aren't enforced, folks get frustrated, the standard declines and it perpetuates from there. The basics of following distance, indicating, keeping left unless overtaking, driving to the conditions, avoiding distractions...would love to see that given some focus. But hey, can't blame the boys in blue as it's a numbers game and they haven't got enough resources.

    So look at it any way you want, road safety is a political and social problem. Sadly I don't see things improving anytime soon.

    All I can do is look after myself as best as I can

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by malcy25 View Post
    How's about actual policing, rather than speed management.
    In the last 12 months I've witnessed cops aprehend quite a few thugs and helped them achieve it. As
    roogazza said people are dumb...

    On yesterdays ride a policeman was assisting a driver who had vehicle issues in Ekatahuna.

  4. #19
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    Casper the friendly ghost, I agree with your assessment mostly, but I do think there is over emphasis on speed enforcement. I have attended Ride Forever courses because I wanted to improve my technique. I have even attended off-road driving courses where I could, rather than just go rip up precious tracks that we can still use.

    My two pet peeves are drivers sitting in the right lane for no reason and people who cut in between the space I have left in front of me and the car I'm following.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeeper View Post
    I agree with your assessment mostly, but I do think there is over emphasis on speed enforcement. I have attended Ride Forever courses because I wanted to improve my technique. I have even attended off-road driving courses where I could, rather than just go rip up precious tracks that we can still use.

    My two pet peeves are drivers sitting in the right lane for no reason and people who cut in between the space I have left in front of me and the car I'm following.
    I go for a ride

    A nice 400km run tomorrow....

  6. #21
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    Gotta keep being ultra-alert. I ride a Postie bike for a crust. On Xmas eve about Noon on my way to start of 2nd run I aproached green light on busy Bunnings Intersection on Tremaine (Palmy)..saw a Police car coming towards me..so thought..better not go through an orange turning red light...so changed down a gear ready to brake. No need to worry about my driving/riding...the cop did a right turn in front of me cutting me off - no indicators and he never saw me. It happens. Keep looking and waiting..as they say - every car on the road is operated by someone trying to kill you.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeeper View Post
    But then do we even have such courses available for drivers? I know about the rider training courses. Why doesn't ACC sponsors such courses for drivers?
    Why does ACC sponsor the courses for riders? It's not because there are a bunch of riders in ACC that want to give riders something free. Riders are crashing and getting injured in the process. Putting them back together costs money, it costs ACC money.

    ACC provides the courses as an investment. Less riders crashing equals less dollars putting them back together. That's the aim. If the statistics said the courses do bugger all, it would be canned ASAP.

    Drivers mostly have metal surrounding them, and that metal has got safer and safer over the years, with crumple zones, air bags etc. It costs a lot less, on average (as there are a lot more drivers than riders) to put drivers/passengers back together, if they're even injured (compare injuries in minor fender benders, cars v bikes).

    Yes, I'd like to see the average cop enforcing all road rules all the time. There are areas where the cops do focus on centre line cutting, holding up others etc, but it's not the norm. The biggest thing tho, is trying to get the riders most at risk, on a Ride Forever course... and they are the most likely not to take up a course...
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  8. #23
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    One thing you forgot about ACC, being an insurance company focused on rehab, a fatality is cheaper for them from cost perspective. Injury has to be supported for life potentially (i.e. ongoing costs).

    In my argument, the focus is on lack of competence of local drivers resulting in similar fatalities as any other year. How do we as a collective improve the skills of an average driver. I used ACC funded training for riders as an example which could be replicated in some ways for drivers. Perhaps, perhaps not.

  9. #24
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    Dow here in Blenheim the new (Read lower) speed limits on SH6 between Blenheim and Nelson came into force last month. I've now travelled the route 3 times, twice in a car and once on a bike.

    First time got sat behind a ute towing a caravan in damp conditions. The rig was doing between 80 and 90Km/hr so stayed where I was - Unfortunately the ute also towing who was behind me didn't think the same and overtook less than 1Km from Havelock, nicely filling any following distance I had left in front of me...

    Fair enough, he's allowed to pass but the lower limits (And attitude of the driver) meant that he was going to perform a risky manoeuvre as he wanted to make progress.

    The other thing I've noticed is that it's very easy to day dream when sitting at the lower speeds. Especially if behind something else as you feel safe when travelling at the lower speed. I suspect this is what happens to many car drivers during the holiday season which in turns leads to poor decision making.

    But hey - You're all going slower so things are safer right???

    Personally the evidence I've seen thus far on SH6 suggests that it isn't safer and that the concentration threshold has been reached.

    Soporific is how I'd term it

  10. #25
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    It’s all about perception of risk, isn’t it? And everyone’s perception of risk, and driving behaviour as a result of that, is different. Public education has worked pretty well with drink driving, but general driving behaviour looks to be a tougher nut to crack.

    I agree that the best way to improve the standard of driving is to make the licence much harder to get and keep. Unfortunately we’ve built our transport infrastructure on the guiding principle of easy access to private vehicles, and changing that now is going to be a long and expensive process.

    Anyway, it’ll all be irrelevant in a couple of years like they were saying a couple of years ago when all the self-driving vehicles take over...crickets.

    Actually the boffins looking into risk management for those might have some interesting insights.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Boy View Post
    Dow here in Blenheim the new (Read lower) speed limits on SH6 between Blenheim and Nelson came into force last month. I've now travelled the route 3 times, twice in a car and once on a bike.

    WRT the 80 Km/Hr limit thats been imposed here - I was in Nelson a few weeks ago and saw all the "80" signs with tape over them. Asked a local about the reason. He said (and correct me if I am wrong) that there were three fatalities in a short space of time, and the local council had to be seen to be "doing something", even though one of the deaths was a suicide, one was a drunk driver and the third was a head-on from overtaking in the wrong place. Is this correct? Because if so, imposing lower limits isn't going to prevent at least two of these, but may well lead to more of the third due to frustration /impatience. And the only cop I saw between Nelson and Blenheim was not out looking for poor driving but parked off the side of an uphill straight, no doubt with the radar on.
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
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  12. #27
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    +1 to above, agreed. We are hitting the limits of the lower speed campaign's actual safety returns.

    I've just come back from a two-day ride and have some observations... firstly I have never seen ordinary Kiwis being so generally nice on the roads. Ever. Ride up behind large, slow campervan / SUV towing caravan / etc, sigh, sit back at polite distance and wait for safe and legal opportunity to pass... oh what's that? Indicating left, pulling over, waving me through? Awesome thanks mate!

    It happened no less than five times in a row on the Rimutaka hill in the morning going north. This included a two-trailer car transporter.

    The aggro that I grew up with on the roads was mostly not there. There was still a trace of it, but tailgating, risky overtakes etc... honestly there were only three people I saw doing this stuff. Two were other bikers. The third was a hotted up ute over the 'Takas on the way back home. That was it.

    While away I heard a story of a double fatal car crash just before Christmas Day, from people with one degree of separation from the family. Pretty tragic... abusive relationship, drugs as part of the lifestyle, loose dog in the back, neither occupant wearing seatbelts and at least one of them went through the windshield. Horrible and also utterly preventable... buckle up. Click. Done. But they hadn't, and from what I'm hearing it's happening more and more.

    So, a couple of questions: how much of this season's road toll is like this? Are the Serious Crash Unit's reports accessible to the general public? Reading the news makes it look like a random bad-luck lottery, and I'm sure some of it is, but when they're just not bothering with the basics then I think we'll have to accept that target zero is not going to happen.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    And if the ticket (even just a speed infringement ticket) goes to court ... the Cop that issued the ticket has to be in court too.
    no it doesn't, hence the concentration on speed, the speed is backed up by radar, the judge beleives the cop has signed an oath, and has a machine to back it up, end of story. As said, if they recorded things then there's hard video evidence to back them up, streamlines the whole thing, be good in car chases too to gain info

  14. #29
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    A research project we did a few years back found a few things that we already knew anecdotally.

    People think they are better than average drivers. That's because they see everyone else's errors, but not their own.

    It's also not how averages work. If everyone was better than average, the average would be higher, which it isn't.

    People generally think more driver education is needed............for other people. Of course, they don't think they need it themselves.

    Optimism bias leads us to believe that we won't be the one that crashes. We accept that crashes will happen, but it won't be us. And because it won't be us, we don't need to change.

    People want change, but they don't want to change.

    The cost of injuries arising from motorcycle crashes are disproportionate to VKT. No matter whose fault they are, they cost more on average than other vehicle crashes. That's why ACC charges more, and invests in Ride Forever.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeeper View Post
    What would you have them police?
    red light runners.
    people who change lanes without indicating and treating traffic as if they were lapping backmarkers in the Indy 500
    cunts who are on the inner lane of a roundabout, see the exit they want and just go - no head turn, no indication. I was nearly killed by that a couple times this year.
    Anyone texting while driving including while stopped at lights should be taken to the side of the road and shot. No trial, no due process, just two in the back of the head and the car parked with the keys in the ignition for anyone to use.
    tailgaters.
    anyone with any distraction in the vehicle including children. My view is that anyone with children in a vehicle should have to use a specific type of vehicle where the driver sits in a separate compartment and the children are loose in the rest of the vehicle. No interaction whatever. Any breach, two in the back of the head.
    Abolish all speed limits and advisory signs. This would force people to use their own judgment. Get it wrong? You guessed it - if Darwin does not sort you out then two in the back of the head.
    reverse the onus of proof. If you are involved in an "accident"* then it is your fault until you prove otherwise. If you can, then you may live. This particularly applies to a car driver v cyclist or motorcyclist.

    *accident - no such thing.

    thatll do for starters. When I rule you all (and I will) this will be what happens. I might make people drive on the right (but in left hand drive cars) just so they will be a bit more careful. .. haven't decided.
    I thought elections were decided by angry posts on social media. - F5 Dave

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