Jacinda

[F5 Dave]

Jezus. How dopey must you be to think these little shits care who is in political power and what policies they make would have an effect on their actions?

[mashman]

Well, ya vote for savages and get savages because you are savages.

“Before our white brothers came to civilize us we had no jails. Therefore we had no criminals. You can't have criminals without a jail. We had no locks or keys, and so we had no thieves. If a man was so poor that he had no horse, tipi or blanket, someone gave him these things. We were to uncivilized to set much value on personal belongings. We wanted to have things only in order to give them away. We had no money, and therefore a man's worth couldn't be measured by it. We had no written law, no attorneys or politicians, therefore we couldn't cheat. We really were in a bad way before the white men came, and I don't know how we managed to get along without these basic things which, we are told, are absolutely necessary to make a civilized society.”

― John Lame Deer

[TheDemonLord]

Well, ya vote for savages and get savages because you are savages.

“Before our white brothers came to civilize us we had no jails. Therefore we had no criminals. You can't have criminals without a jail. We had no locks or keys, and so we had no thieves. If a man was so poor that he had no horse, tipi or blanket, someone gave him these things. We were to uncivilized to set much value on personal belongings. We wanted to have things only in order to give them away. We had no money, and therefore a man's worth couldn't be measured by it. We had no written law, no attorneys or politicians, therefore we couldn't cheat. We really were in a bad way before the white men came, and I don't know how we managed to get along without these basic things which, we are told, are absolutely necessary to make a civilized society.”

― John Lame Deer

Just don't mention the Rape, Pillage, Tribal Warfare, Extra-judicial Killing, fighting over land and resources...

[onearmedbandit]

Jezus. How dopey must you be to think these little shits care who is in political power and what policies they make would have an effect on their actions?

Sure cutting hands off wouldn't deter all of them but it would deter a lot, and make those that choose to take the risk a lot easier to identify.

[george formby]

Expectations that a government can fix crime?

Hasn't happened in the last 2000 years regardless of the punishment.

Inequality and the alternative universe of the digital world, which we spend ever more time in, is only making things worse.

[onearmedbandit]

Expectations that a government can fix crime?

Hasn't happened in the last 2000 years regardless of the punishment.

Inequality and the alternative universe of the digital world, which we spend ever more time in, is only making things worse.

You'll never 'fix' crime but you can discourage it. Take it to extremes, if there were no punishment for any crime do you think there would be no rise in crime?

[george formby]

You'll never 'fix' crime but you can discourage it. Take it to extremes, if there were no punishment for any crime do you think there would be no rise in crime?

At that extreme we would live in an anarchic society and all be armed to the teeth. It would certainly make real criminals smarter or perhaps just more violent.


Countries with the death penalty or lesser physical punishments still have high crime rates. They may deter thrill seekers to an extent, like ram raiders posting on tik tok, but by the same token the kudos attached to risking such harsh punishment motivate some people to commit crime. Far more so now, with social media.

So far, the best tactic at reducing crime was created by the Church. The hope of heaven and threat of hell kept a lot of people in line.

[TheDemonLord]

From what I've read, it's not the harshness of the Punishment that is the biggest deterrent, but it's the likelihood of getting caught that's the bigger deterrent.

Perhaps if the Police focused on Criminals, instead of Law Abiding Citizens, they might have a bit more time to catch those who are committing crime.

But I guess if they did that, it would make certain stats look bad and we can't have that...

[george formby]

From what I've read, it's not the harshness of the Punishment that is the biggest deterrent, but it's the likelihood of getting caught that's the bigger deterrent.

Perhaps if the Police focused on Criminals, instead of Law Abiding Citizens, they might have a bit more time to catch those who are committing crime.

But I guess if they did that, it would make certain stats look bad and we can't have that...

Fair point.

But a slippery slope.

Decades ago, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, installed hundreds of CCTV cameras around the city centre in an effort to curb vandalism and violence when the (dozens) of pubs emptied out.
It worked. To such an extent that my dear old mam is quite comfortable going into the city centre on a Saturday night.

The flip side is the ongoing privacy bleaters and the fact that the crime shifted to periphery areas without cameras.

Yes, give teh Federales a fair crack of the whip and ban wet bus tickets.

[onearmedbandit]

At that extreme we would live in an anarchic society and all be armed to the teeth. It would certainly make real criminals smarter or perhaps just more violent.

That's avoiding the point. Punishment does act as 'a' deterrent, there's no arguing that. I'm not suggesting it's the only method, nor the best, but it does play its part in maintaining some degree of civility. Heck 'punishment' is the only reason I don't ride the way I would like to my favourite countryside destinations.

[george formby]

That's avoiding the point. Punishment does act as 'a' deterrent, there's no arguing that. I'm not suggesting it's the only method, nor the best, but it does play its part in maintaining some degree of civility. Heck 'punishment' is the only reason I don't ride the way I would like to my favourite countryside destinations.

Fair call, too.

But I think the issue is that society needs more effective deterrents to stem crime. Don't ask me what, though.

As for countryside destinations, I just found a speeding ticket in the letterbox.. Fortunately not my name on it.

[onearmedbandit]

Fair call, too.

But I think the issue is that society needs more effective deterrents to stem crime. Don't ask me what, though.

As for countryside destinations, I just found a speeding ticket in the letterbox.. Fortunately not my name on it.

Agreed, there do need to be better deterrents. But humans are emotive beings, irrational at times, desperate in others, bored, frustrated, angry, destitute, lazy, jealous, etc. Change human nature and we might effectively get crime under control.

Thankfully been a while since my last ticket. Xmas day around 6yrs ago leaving my mothers place. Got a text when I got home, 'Hope you know about the speed camera up the road'. Nope, I didn't.

[pritch]

If you vote national they are going to let police doing warrantkess searches of gangs for weapons that will have huge impact.

Sounds good to the simple minded. Ask yourself, well maybe not. Ask someone else how the Police decide who is a gang member and who is not.

The police can already perform warrantless searches if they believe there has been an offence against the drugs act or the firearms act. Those should cover any gang.
Also they can enter premises in pursuit of of a traffic offender.

The Police have all the legislation they need. They just need to get off their arse. But Hey! Give them more they'll take it. They'll take it but may not bother to use it.

[pete376403]

Sounds good to the simple minded. Ask yourself, well maybe not. Ask someone else how the Police decide who is a gang member and who is not.

The police can already perform warrantless searches if they believe there has been an offence against the drugs act or the firearms act. Those should cover any gang.
Also they can enter premises in pursuit of of a traffic offender.

The Police have all the legislation they need. They just need to get off their arse. But Hey! Give them more they'll take it. They'll take it but may not bother to use it.

If the Police use all the powers they have - which to many people is abuse of power - it wont be the police that cop the flak, it will be the government. But if the government interfere with how the police do their job there even more complaints of "police state". No win no matter what.

[TheDemonLord]

Sounds good to the simple minded. Ask yourself, well maybe not. Ask someone else how the Police decide who is a gang member and who is not.

I mean, there's a rather simple test that most Kiwis would consider valid:

"Are they flying Gang Colours and Patches?"

Although as the resident Libertarian, this does give me pause - what is the principle of limitation at work? It is sufficient for a Government to merely decide a group is 'bad'.