Jacinda

[Kendog]

Not my burden of proof.

That would be Pritchs.

If he wants to make the claim that NZ did so much better than everywhere else, then he needs to compare our performance against countries that followed different policies.

Typical avoidance.
You are a master of making claims that suit you, just like Donald Trump.

[TheDemonLord]

Typical avoidance.
You are a master of making claims that suit you, just like Donald Trump.

Except Pritch is the one making the claim:

"Our Covid response is the best in the world and here's the proof"

I'm pointing out that the countries being compared both had Lockdowns and vaccine mandates, therefore any conclusion drawn is dubious at best.

A real comparison would be to compare NZs response to other countries that didn't institute immoral and iliberal policies and see how our numbers stack up to theirs.

So, no - I'm not avoiding anything, I'm poking holes in Pritchs claim on it's own merits.

[neels]

A real comparison would be to compare NZs response to other countries that didn't institute immoral and iliberal policies and see how our numbers stack up to theirs.

[Kendog]

Is that enough evidence for you TDL

Or is that fake news?

[TheDemonLord]

Is that enough evidence for you TDL

Or is that fake news?

That depends - at a first glance, they look much the same.

But the Devil is in the detail.

NZs inflation rate started to skyrocket around 2021
Sweden really started a vertical climb at the start of 2022.

Did anything happen in Europe at the start of 2022 that might have had an impact? Perhaps on Energy prices, that had flow-on effects? Perhaps by an aggressor country in close proximity to Sweden?

I'm also struck by the different lines - the NZ looks to be reported quarterly (datapoints every 3 months) whereas the Swedish one looks to be monthly - this means that in NZ a lot of variability is lost.

It looks like that before the Ukraine crisis kicked off, Sweden was on track for between 2-4% inflation. NZ on the otherhand was at 6% and climbing.

So - you tell me - is it enough Evidence? Seems to me that immediately after Covid, Sweden had very stable inflation rates due to not dumping cash into the economy, whilst at the same time period, NZ was starting to experience runaway inflation.

[neels]

That depends - at a first glance, they look much the same.

But the Devil is in the detail.

NZs inflation rate started to skyrocket around 2021
Sweden really started a vertical climb at the start of 2022.

Did anything happen in Europe at the start of 2022 that might have had an impact? Perhaps on Energy prices, that had flow-on effects? Perhaps by an aggressor country in close proximity to Sweden?

I'm also struck by the different lines - the NZ looks to be reported quarterly (datapoints every 3 months) whereas the Swedish one looks to be monthly - this means that in NZ a lot of variability is lost.

It looks like that before the Ukraine crisis kicked off, Sweden was on track for between 2-4% inflation. NZ on the otherhand was at 6% and climbing.

So - you tell me - is it enough Evidence? Seems to me that immediately after Covid, Sweden had very stable inflation rates due to not dumping cash into the economy, whilst at the same time period, NZ was starting to experience runaway inflation.

[Kendog]

I agree..
Both show inflation start to rise about the same time.
A lot (most?) counties are experiencing high inflation.
But somehow in NZ it’s Labour/Jacinda’s fault, with no acknowledgment of how well we as a county managed Covid.

I guess some people just like laying blame and enjoy taking the minority or conspiracy view on topics to get into an argument.

[R650R]

[TheDemonLord]

I agree..
Both show inflation start to rise about the same time.

I mean, if you mean an entire year difference to be 'about the same time' - then sure...

And as I alluded to - there are other events that are particularly relevant to Sweden given it's location and proximity and dependence on Russian Energy that are far more likely to be the cause of the inflationary spike that started around 2022.

So, let's look at another country that didn't follow the same policies as the US, UK and NZ and isn't in close proximity to a war...



Oh. Oh deary me.

Would you look at that!

Why - they didn't institute horrendously iliberal and immoral lockdowns and they seem to have had fairly stable Inflation!

And what's that? They've got a population nearly 5 times that of NZ and a population density of 5 times that of NZ and during the height of the pandemic (2020-2021) they had numbers of deaths comparable to NZ?

Before anyone points out - yes in 2022, something seems to have changed and they have reported a load of deaths - not sure why - but I'm looking at the initial outbreak as it's most relevant to this discussion.

So - there you all go - Proof, by your own standards, that if we hadn't followed our 'World class Covid response' - and instead followed Taiwan - we'd probably have the same or even less deaths than we did, and we wouldn't have fucked the Economy.

A lot (most?) counties are experiencing high inflation.
But somehow in NZ it’s Labour/Jacinda’s fault, with no acknowledgment of how well we as a county managed Covid.

I don't think 'we' managed covid particularly well. See above.

I think that the biggest factors are:

1: extremely limited entry/exit points to the country
2: No mass transit system(s)
3: Hole in the Ozone layer (no, seriously - UV Radiation had a significant effect on the spread of Covid)
4: Low population density
5: Primary means of inter-city travel is by private car

Those 5 factors alone are responsible for far more than any government policy.

Compare (again) with Taiwan - more people - closer proximity - no mass lockdowns and no mass deaths either.

I guess some people just like laying blame and enjoy taking the minority or conspiracy view on topics to get into an argument.

Government borrowing and spending drives Inflation.

If you think this is a Conspiracy, then I suggest an Economics 101 class. Government borrowed and spent to keep businesses afloat whilst those businesses weren't producing goods of value = inflation.

This is not a minority or conspiratorial view - it's well known economics since the Weimar republic...

[pritch]

Another "failed policy"?

[Kendog]

Comparing NZ to Taiwan. Maybe next time we will be able to respond differently having had this experience. But I suspect this time around the NZ public weren’t ready since we didn’t have a recent event (SARS for Taiwan) to reference. Combined with the ease of misinformation and anti govt stories spreading on social media, you end up in a situation where mandates are required.

Based on what I read in here and other forums, plus listening to some friends talk, it seemed some people always want to go against what the govt/police/doctors/scientists/teachers say. Freedom of choice is one thing, death and spreading infection is another.

A quick Taiwan Google:

What was different about Taiwan’s approach and experience? In particular, what enabled the country to limit cases of Covid-19 in the first 16 months of the pandemic and then to control the outbreak quickly in May 2021?

First, Taiwan was prepared and acted at the first signs of the virus in early 2020. Policy-makers had learned lessons from the 2003 SARS crisis and made plans to prepare for future pandemics.

To that end, the government strengthened Taiwan’s CDC and healthcare delivery system, and taught the public the importance of face masks, hand hygiene and temperature checks. In addition, a 2011 constitutional ruling granted the government power to do all that is necessary in national public health emergencies, including ‘temporarily removing personal freedom of movement’. This made mandatory quarantine possible during the Covid-19 crisis.

The cooperation of Taiwan’s public also plays an important role. Like the country’s government, the public also learned important lessons from the 2003 SARS crisis, such as basic public health practices like hand hygiene, wearing facemasks and social distancing. More importantly, the experience from this earlier pandemic changed the public’s attitude from distrusting the government to cooperating.

Difficulties frequently encountered in many Western countries with vaccine hesitancy, contact tracing, quarantine and facemask resistance have not generally been problems in Taiwan. The public regards cooperating with the government in national emergencies as a civic responsibility and shares the recognition that everyone is in this together. The importance of these two attributes cannot be overstated in Taiwan’s highly successful Covid-19 outcomes to date.

[TheDemonLord]

Comparing NZ to Taiwan. Maybe next time we will be able to respond differently having had this experience. But I suspect this time around the NZ public weren’t ready since we didn’t have a recent event (SARS for Taiwan) to reference. Combined with the ease of misinformation and anti govt stories spreading on social media, you end up in a situation where mandates are required.

Based on what I read in here and other forums, plus listening to some friends talk, it seemed some people always want to go against what the govt/police/doctors/scientists/teachers say.

"You won't do what I tell you to do, therefore I'm going to Mandate it"

And then people wonder why I use the word Authoritarian. And then you wonder why people might be resistant to it. From the moment I turned 18 and left home, the only person who got to tell me what to do 'for my own good' was me.

Now, you'll forgive me for a moment here - but I couldn't help but notice something missing - some form of acknowledgement of the point I was making.

I mean, when you thought I was wrong, there were grandiose demands for proof and much facepalming - yet, when I'm able to comfortably meet your burden of proof (even though it was not mine to meet) - you are awfully silent.

Curious.

Freedom of choice is one thing, death and spreading infection is another.

No, it really isn't.

You are responsible for managing your own risk. I'll use an example we are all familiar with here:

Motorcycling. If you don't want to be killed in a Smidsy accident, you choose not to ride a Bike and get a great big honking SUV. What you cannot do is demand that everyone else must restrict their freedoms and walk everywhere to account for your desire to ride a Motorcycle without being hit.

Conversely, other people cannot restrict your desire to ride a Motorcycle because they are worried about you crashing into them and killing them.

This is one of the fundamentals of Natural Rights and it's something we have gotten so horribly wrong in modern society. You can only dictate your own actions, not those of others.

So, you are worried about the Virus - you can wear a Mask, wear gloves, wear a full NBC suit if you choose to - that's your choice. I 1000% support your right to make decisions about your health and safety - Get Vaccinated? Awesome! Don't get vaccinated? Great! Mask? You do you! No Mask? Marvelous.

A quick Taiwan Google:

See, I've read different accounts - it seems what Taiwan did was very aggressive border shutting, followed by targeted quarantine periods for those that needed to be. Essentially playing to the strengths of an Island nation and actually going 'Hard and Early' - this seems to have had the single biggest effect.

The Mask Wearing/hand washing/Contact Tracing - considering those measures were used in multiple other locations, with multiple levels of 'effectiveness' (being charitable here) - I don't think much stock can be placed in them - if they were as effective as certain groups claim, we would see a similar outcomes between the countries that used them - we didn't, which tells me that there are other much more significant factors at play. Being an Island and shutting the borders seems by far to be the biggest factor.

[pete376403]

"You won't do what I tell you to do, therefore I'm going to Mandate it".

If "mandate" is another form of law passed by a sitting Government, what other laws do you disregard because you think they limit your personal freedoms and therefore shouldn't apply?

[Kendog]

From the moment I turned 18 and left home, the only person who got to tell me what to do 'for my own good' was me.

That explains a lot about your posting.

I want to smoke while I’m having dinner inside my favourite restaurant, but the government said no. Authoritarian bastards, how dare they dictate what I can and can’t do for my own good.

I want to drive my car without wearing a restrictive seatbelt, but the government said no. Authoritarian bastards, how dare they dictate what I can and can’t do for my own good.

And yes, these examples are comparable to what happened with Covid. Follow some fairly simple rules, that in Covids case are short term and there for yours and everyone else’s protection.
If you don’t want to, perhaps you should try living in Taiwan and see how your ‘freedoms’ are treated there.

[TheDemonLord]

If "mandate" is another form of law passed by a sitting Government, what other laws do you disregard because you think they limit your personal freedoms and therefore shouldn't apply?

Pretty much everything that doesn't have a basis (tangential or otherwise) in Natural Rights.