Jacinda

[pritch]

Well, let's just put a pin in that and bring it out after the next election then shall we?

Why? It would be completely irrelevant. There will be a new government which will probably claim to have a mandate.

In the days of 'first past the post' elections, National usually governed without a mandate. Although of course they'd claim one. Most National governments were minority governments in the sense that more people had voted against them than for them. Votes from farms being bigger than votes from towns due to some gentle gerrymandering.

The current system provides more realistic results. Whatever coalition is cobbled together can claim a mandate. Last time though, for the first time under this system, Labour had a mandate on its own. It lasts until the next election.

Gill Scott Heron had some remarks on mandates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSOp507HJMA

[TheDemonLord]

Why? It would be completely irrelevant. There will be a new government which will probably claim to have a mandate.

So which is it?

Does Election day results ("The only results that matter") give a Government a Mandate?
Or is it the will of the people (and certainly Polling numbers are an expression of that will) by which the Government can Claim a Mandate?

In the days of 'first past the post' elections, National usually governed without a mandate. Although of course they'd claim one. Most National governments were minority governments in the sense that more people had voted against them than for them. Votes from farms being bigger than votes from towns due to some gentle gerrymandering.

Labour has a Mandate because they won the Election, under the system at the time, but National didn't have a mandate because they won the election under the system at the time....

The current system provides more realistic results. Whatever coalition is cobbled together can claim a mandate. Last time though, for the first time under this system, Labour had a mandate on its own. It lasts until the next election.

More realistic? I'm not sure on that. I have no particularly strong feelings on MMP vs First past the person vs an Electoral College type system - all have their pros and their cons.

MMP does allow for a broader range of Political parties, when compared to FPP (e.g. The Greens, Labour, Act, NZ First, National, Maori party) but it could also be said that it does allow fringe parties disproportionate power in the negotiating phase when it comes to forming a Coalition - see Winston's betrayal of his voterbase and the first term for Jacinda.

However, regardless of my or your feelings on any system of elections - the point of this reply is such: The rules that are applied to labour must also be applied to National.

I'd suggest that it would be better to frame a mandate from the people not merely on Election day - as we've seen the absolute plummeting of Stalinda, The mandate from the people is quickly evaporating.

Some of us just saw it earlier than others.

[pete376403]

So which is it?

Does Election day results ("The only results that matter") give a Government a Mandate?
Or is it the will of the people (and certainly Polling numbers are an expression of that will) by which the Government can Claim a Mandate?.

Polling by various organisations are irrelevant as there is no control other than the pollsters integrity. Anyone can set up a poll and then claim without any form of check that "xx% of the poll says..." which is usually based on a very small group. I for one have NEVER been polled by any organisation asking me the about my political affiliations, probably because I no longer have a land line phone

[TheDemonLord]

Polling by various organisations are irrelevant as there is no control other than the pollsters integrity. Anyone can set up a poll and then claim without any form of check that "xx% of the poll says..." which is usually based on a very small group. I for one have NEVER been polled by any organisation asking me the about my political affiliations, probably because I no longer have a land line phone

To a point, sure - but then there are well established Polling institutions (Colmar Brunton) that have a reasonable track record.

I don't think you can lump reputable polling organizations into the 'Anyone can setup a Poll' claim.

However, the point I was making to Pritch is that baring something like Covid (which realistically was what got Jacinda Re-elected as before then the Government was doing terribly due to their non-delivery of just about every campaign promise) - If the next government comes in and is a National/Act coalition - then any laws they pass through, especially the ones that he might take issue with, by his own admission, I'll get to crow about it being a Mandate from the People, since it's the election night result that is the only one that counts.

Whereas if he wanted to go with the more moderate position - namely that Governments of all stripes renege on their election promises and no longer enjoy the full support of the people (such as this Labour Government) - then I won't get to claim 'Mandate of the People'.

[husaberg]

Polling by various organisations are irrelevant as there is no control other than the pollsters integrity. Anyone can set up a poll and then claim without any form of check that "xx% of the poll says..." which is usually based on a very small group. I for one have NEVER been polled by any organisation asking me the about my political affiliations, probably because I no longer have a land line phone

Why? It would be completely irrelevant. There will be a new government which will probably claim to have a mandate.

In the days of 'first past the post' elections, National usually governed without a mandate. Although of course they'd claim one. Most National governments were minority governments in the sense that more people had voted against them than for them. Votes from farms being bigger than votes from towns due to some gentle gerrymandering.

The current system provides more realistic results. Whatever coalition is cobbled together can claim a mandate. Last time though, for the first time under this system, Labour had a mandate on its own. It lasts until the next election.

Gill Scott Heron had some remarks on mandates. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSOp507HJMA

Remember that time TDRL did once claimed he didn't believe the US elections results as they did not tally with what he thought they should be...

It was only topped when he called the votes at 119 MP's vs one decided on was "undemocratic"

[neels]

Polling before the last election predicted Labour in mid 40's, and National in 30's, ended up with Labour almost doubling National vote at the actual election.

At the moment there are a lot of people who are angry about stuff, which is generally taken out on whoever is in charge at the time.

With a year to run until the election there's plenty of time for National to shoot themselves in the face yet again, if Luxon carries on the way he is he'll alienate the moderate centre voters and it'll be a new leader before the run into the election.

Labour need to do something about the large numbers of people they are currently pissing off, stop passing terribly thought out legislation and remember that pandering to minorities makes them happy, but it's majorities that win elections.

Then again, it was reported today that Jacinda has the full support of the party, which usually means it's a couple of week until the knife is plunged firmly between the shoulder blades......

[TheDemonLord]

Remember that time TDRL did once claimed he didn't believe the US elections results as they did not tally with what he thought they should be...

How's those numbers doing for Old Joe? Worst president in US history? And yet we are told we have to believe at the same time that he is the most wildly popular President in US history and that the Election was merely 'Fortified' and that the Hunter Laptop was totally not true and....

It was only topped when he called the votes at 119 MP's vs one decided on was "undemocratic"

See, when you repeat your own lies, instead of repeating what was actually said, you get things wrong. I never said the Vote was undemocratic. I said that when you have to change the rules that are in place specifically to prevent you from doing the thing you are about to do in order to pass your legislation, it becomes undemocratic.

Not to mention when you ignore a petition that has more signatures opposing the law change than the submissions process had signatures in favour of it...

But then, that's a Socialist's form of 'Democracy'

[TheDemonLord]

Polling before the last election predicted Labour in mid 40's, and National in 30's, ended up with Labour almost doubling National vote at the actual election.

I don't have the polls to hand - however I do remember a lot of discussion as to whether Jacinda could form a majority government without a coalition partner. Which turned out to be true - so the overall results were pretty close.

With a year to run until the election there's plenty of time for National to shoot themselves in the face yet again, if Luxon carries on the way he is he'll alienate the moderate centre voters and it'll be a new leader before the run into the election.

Completely agree on Luxon. He needs to either understand what actual conservatism is or failing that, at least stand on his principles, rather than trying to catch the wave of popularity.

Labour need to do something about the large numbers of people they are currently pissing off, stop passing terribly thought out legislation and remember that pandering to minorities makes them happy, but it's majorities that win elections.

Socialism is a Minority agenda. Fortunately, most people who were dazzled by Jacinda in 2020 (or at least, the ones I've talked to) they are starting to see what I saw back in 2017.

Then again, it was reported today that Jacinda has the full support of the party, which usually means it's a couple of week until the knife is plunged firmly between the shoulder blades......

Oh for it to be Literal and not Metaphorical...

However wishful thinking aside - in reality - who exists in the Labour party that is leadership material? Unless there is someone waiting in the wings, I'd be surprised if there's someone brave enough to swing the sword.

[pete376403]

Not to mention when you ignore a petition that has more signatures opposing the law change than the submissions process had signatures in favour of it...

But then, that's a Socialist's form of 'Democracy'

Petitions have no more validity than polls. The ELECTION decides who will be the Government, and the election is basically "the people selecting a group to run things". Petition and polls can offer an insight into how well or badly the people * are feeling, but regardless, the Government are the managers until the next election.

*the people who feel strongly enough to bother responding to petition / poll, that is. Looking at the Colmar Brunton website, their polls are usually taken over 1000 people. Thats not many really.

[TheDemonLord]

Petitions have no more validity than polls. The ELECTION decides who will be the Government, and the election is basically "the people selecting a group to run things". Petition and polls can offer an insight into how well or badly the people * are feeling, but regardless, the Government are the managers until the next election.

*the people who feel strongly enough to bother responding to petition / poll, that is. Looking at the Colmar Brunton website, their polls are usually taken over 1000 people. Thats not many really.

Well... Petitions do have more validity than polls - they are an established part of the democratic process.

And whilst the Election may decide who will be the Government - there are things outside of the Election promises/Manifesto for which things like Referendum and petitions are a mechanism to assess the will of the people.

That is, of course, if the Government doesn't arbitrarily ignore them.

[pete376403]

Well... Petitions do have more validity than polls - they are an established part of the democratic process.

And whilst the Election may decide who will be the Government - there are things outside of the Election promises/Manifesto for which things like Referendum and petitions are a mechanism to assess the will of the people.

That is, of course, if the Government doesn't arbitrarily ignore them.

Petitions will let them know how those strongly those people care about something . If it suits the Govt purpose they may take notice. They may go as far as having a referendum. But they may also make it non-binding.
What petitions to the government have you signed and what was the outcome?

[pritch]

At the moment there are a lot of people who are angry about stuff, which is generally taken out on whoever is in charge at the time.

True. You wouldn't believe from the media coverage that NZ is rated the tenth happiest country on earth. There are 136 countries less happy. That might seem to be a good thing, but there is no hint of this good news in the local media.

Actually, our economy is doing better than many and we are safer than all but one. Still, the simple minded fuckwits that listen to NewstalkZB are sucked down in to the gloom and despondency and, of course, they blame the government.

[husaberg]

True. You wouldn't believe from the media coverage that NZ is rated the tenth happiest country on earth. There are 136 countries less happy. That might seem to be a good thing, but there is no hint of this good news in the local media.

Actually, our economy is doing better than many and we are safer than all but one. Still, the simple minded fuckwits that listen to NewstalkZB are sucked down in to the gloom and despondency and, of course, they blame the government.

Those comparisons are best avoided aye as they don't fit the right narrative.

Attachment 351518
The IMF's general government net debt indicator shows New Zealand's debt at 21.3 percent of GDP in 2023, compared to 31.6 percent in Canada, 40.7 percent in Australia, 71.3 percent in the UK and 94.9 percent in the US.

Funny thing is when national increased our debt to GDP by 20% all the right wingers were "oh the GFC" Keys great.
yet now labour raises it 5% and its a train wreck
Attachment 351519
notice how, when nationals in power despite dullards claiming otherwise our debt increase and the opposite generally happens under Labour.

Yeah but things would be much better under a ruler with a penis.

Maybe if you whack it hard enough boys you might make it angry enough to see in you dick pic photos to your religious leaders.

Yes, but when National are borrowing money it's to fund tax cuts for rich people, which is acceptable because they'll use it to invest in business (and certainly not to buy a new boat or holiday house). Then all we have to do is wait for that money to trickle down to the workers, and the economy is saved.

Labour just borrow money so people can buy food and pay their bills, and that money (less the 15% they take straight back) just goes directly into the economy so does no good at all

Obviously a sarcasm emoji is needed here. Trickle down theory (first started as a joke by Will Rogers and then accepted by that well known economist and cowboy actor Reagan ) has been widely proven not to work https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...-trickle-down/ While there are a few philanthropic exceptions to the billionaires running off and hiding with their money, there are not many, and not enough to offset the harm done by the rest. Not much trickling down to be seen here https://fortune.com/2021/12/07/world...ring-pandemic/

Sorry Neels i missed your response faf i had to turn of my quote notification a some dick i have not replied to for nearly 2 years insists of quoting me 3 times a day.

[TheDemonLord]

Petitions will let them know how those strongly those people care about something . If it suits the Govt purpose they may take notice. They may go as far as having a referendum. But they may also make it non-binding.
What petitions to the government have you signed and what was the outcome?

Obviously I've signed various Firearm related ones - and we know what the outcome was there.

There have been some throughout the years that I've signed as well - but I honestly couldn't tell you exactly what it was for and what the outcome was.

However, the point being is that Petitions (unlike Polls) are a formal and established part of our Democracy.

[TheDemonLord]

True. You wouldn't believe from the media coverage that NZ is rated the tenth happiest country on earth. There are 136 countries less happy. That might seem to be a good thing, but there is no hint of this good news in the local media.

You can try and tell people everything is rosey, but when their Fuel bill, their Power bill, their grocery bill have all gone up and their wages/salary have remained the same - turns out people aren't happy about that.

At all.

Actually, our economy is doing better than many and we are safer than all but one.

"Yeah, I stabbed someone multiple times in the chest, but I didn't hit any major arteries - so they are doing better than the others I've stabbed to death"

Still, the simple minded fuckwits that listen to NewstalkZB are sucked down in to the gloom and despondency and, of course, they blame the government.

Yeah, those Simple Minded Fuckwits who are struggling to make ends meet, who are taking up second or third jobs due to Government induced inflation.

How dare they be Doomy and Gloomy about their Rent or Mortgage going up!