Braking - My Take

[FJRider]

I left my house with the visor just cracked an inch. A fly bounced off the chin piece and right up my nostril. Bleeerrgh. I had to push the other nostril closed and blow to get it out. What a disgusting start to the day.

Then I considered how the fly must have felt.

Have you ever got hit on your knee-cap ... by a stone flicked up by a car .. ??

[Bonez]

I was fortunate to be trained by an old school trucker whoÂ’d had his share of heavy metal interactions... One thing he passed on which I later put into practice twice is sometimes you may not be able to stop but you can CHOOSE what your going to hit.

So IÂ’m northbound from a day watching winter series at Manfield cruising at a dollar twenty on the GSXR back when it wasnÂ’t a heinous offence. Overtaking a grubby farm ute when he slams anchors and turns into driveway at my point of no return.
I grab a handful of brakes end up staring at front quarter panel... amazing the time your brain has to think in slow mo in these events. Headline Mc killed while overtaking turning vehicle you bastard it will look like my fault when you just havenÂ’t indicated or they were mud covered or didnÂ’t even look for me....
I realise current trajectory ends very badly, I still have an option...
I let go of brakes and violently turn to right and pass just in front of his bumper....
IÂ’m now on a rural grass verge at night still doing 70k probably but thinking us yay IÂ’m
Alive!!Â’
But then I see the next property has a letterbox on verge attached to a dam solid round post...
I remember lifting my foot of peg as leg amputation didnÂ’t seem like something I would like...
Somehow I miss that too and end up back on tarmac cruising in state of shock....

One issue from my side was I was out wide prob in his blind spot I used to give people too much room maybe.

IÂ’ve had my fair share of near misses (and actual crashes) but that has been my closest near death bike incident. 20 years ago and managed to avoid anything being as close as that through collective learning experiences on the road in trucks and bikes.

There's that dreaded "e" word again. No amout of classroom trailing will be better the experiance over a period of time.
Taking a group of riders through an area that was known to have bees, wasps etc around was absolutely stupid. What if a rider had a reaction if they got stung?

Out the back of Masterton riding with my visor completely down I had a bee come in my helment under the chin guard. Luckily for me it was quite happy to walk back and forth on the inside of the visor. I just slowed down a b, opened the visorr slowly a couple of inches and the bee figured out how to remove itself from inside my helmet.

[caspernz]

Taking a group of riders through an area that was known to have bees, wasps etc around was absolutely stupid. What if a rider had a reaction if they got stung?

Don't know what planet you live on chap, but on mine flying things are all around. The only variation is the quantity thereof.

I check the weather forecast as well, can't have anyone melting when it rains either

[Bonez]

Don't know what planet you live on chap, but on mine flying things are all around. The only variation is the quantity thereof.

I check the weather forecast as well, can't have anyone melting when it rains either

As an instructor you chose to take the riders though an area that was prone to Swarms. Did you tell the riders to p[ut a doughnut around their knecks?

Ya Connie flew down sputh on a flying thing.

Just saying...

[caspernz]

As an instructor you chose to take the riders though an area that was prone to Swarms. Did you tell the riders to p[ut a doughnut around their knecks?

Ya Connie flew down sputh on a flying thing.

Just saying...

When did I say swarms? And yep, the appropriate pre-ride briefing was done.

But go right ahead, exaggerate and assume all you want

[Bonez]

When did I say swarms? And yep, the appropriate pre-ride briefing was done.

But go right ahead, exaggerate and assume all you want

" a valley known to be full of bugs/bees etc." suggests there will be a possibility of swarms.

[nzspokes]

Yup. Been stung a few times. Had them in me hemlet but the worst was riding into a swarm and getting multiple bees up the sleeves of my jacket.

Hit a pheasant "speed testing" an old 750 years ago. I hit it with the clutch lever and fractured my fingers before it hit my chest and embedded a pillow full of feathers into the zip. Same jacket as I got stung in. After managing to remove the jacket with one hand it never left the closet again.

I dread to think what would have happened if it hit the brake lever. Ouchies.

Year or two back I went out to make sure I knew a route after work that I was taking somebody out on that coming weekend.

Made the mistake of having my dark visor on. It got dark so I lifted it. Pretty soon after a bug nailed me in the eye.

It didnt get better. I ended up at the Eye unit with a nice lady digging the bug remains out of my eye with a needle.

I cant say it was a fun time.

[actungbaby]

Which brake is the most powerful on the bike? Which is the most stable?

I don't have a favourite brake. I use both, in different proportions related to the circumstances in play at the time. Lean angle, momentum (speed), necessity, coefficient of surface friction, that sort of stuff.

I learned a thing or two when I learned to ride, on a CT90 on a farm in Western Southland in the 70's. Wet grass, front brake, down ya go. Get up, brush off the wet grass, off you go again. Front brake, down ya go. What did I learn? Bloody front brake, won't be touching that again.

I know many people who don't use the back brake at all, because the front brake is the most powerful. This is related to weight transfer arising from monentum.

I know just as many people who never use the front brake. Perhaps they had an off because they locked the front brake on a low friction surface (like me), perhaps they used the front brake while leaning in a U-turn, and tipped over (also part of my learning journey).

For example, on gravel at low speed, pulling the front brake on is likely to lock the front wheel due to a low coefficient of surface friction. Especially given the low speed, there's not much weight transfer anyway, and it's likely the back brake can remove the momentum perfectly well. Lock the back wheel on gravel, no biggie. Lock the front, down ya go.

The other end of the scale is when a plonker pulls out of a side road ahead of you. Assuming there is no escape path, and that an emergency stop is necessary, the front brake is crucial. Applying it progressively will commence the weight of the bike coming off the back wheel, reducing the ability of the rear brake to reduce momentum. The good news is that the weight coming off the back wheel is going onto the front wheel, compressing the suspension, travelling down through the forks, hub and spokes and flexing the sidewallls of the front tyer. If you have the tyre pressues correct, the contact patch speads put as it shpould giving you far better contact with the world, making your stop so much quicker. The back, while it's not removing much momentum, adds to the stability of the stop.

One thing that is clear is that those folk who only ever use one brake are compromising their riding, and probably their safety. And until the day it goes wrong, they won't even know it.

Some bikes back brake more effective my forza 250 most scooters engine over that end.imagine goldwing the same. Good tip not pull clutch in when doing emergency stop.keeps back wheel hopping.
Yes i agree with you.

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

[actungbaby]

But what if you have linked brakes, so when you use one, the bike uses both?

Or, if you have linked brakes and use the front only, it uses both, but use the rear only, and it only uses the rear?
What about normal ABS settings with both ends on, vs offroad ABS where rear can be locked (ABS deactivated), but the front is still enabled?

Werid thing i felt front skid when was braking on 22 honda ct 125 with abs .wasint a problem .just moved forward for second.

Sent from my CPH1941 using Tapatalk

[george formby]

I do like a wee dredge..

The mention of scooters got me thinking, and trying to fix the wee wheels on me mulcher. Bastard things.. Mulcher wheels.

I ride a fair bit of dirt and the front chops out quite often but it's rarely a scenery tasting event.

So my pondering is that the bigger the front wheel the more time you have to react when losing teh traction? I've never seen a Penny-farthing tuck the front..

Or is their summit else going on?

[Gremlin]

So my pondering is that the bigger the front wheel the more time you have to react when losing teh traction? I've never seen a Penny-farthing tuck the front..

Or is their summit else going on?

Bigger diameter is mostly for rolling over uneven terrain more easily, dealing with bumps etc. It's also slower steering (hence why you see testers comment on the big front wheel of adventure bikes on the road, whether they notice or not).
Narrower so it grips better, less likely to float on top of stuff.

Beyond that, you have configuration of the geometry, weight of the bike, how the manufacturer wants it to steer etc. For example, my R1200GSA loves to plow a trench with the front in rougher stuff, really hard work, turning the wheel simply made it want to fall over. Took the 1090R onto sand, and it was less inclined to dig the front in, and more likely to loft it onto the sand and made things so much easier. The BMW has a 110/80/19 and 150/70/17 combo, whereas the KTM has a 90/90/21 and 150/70/18 combo...

[R650R]

So who’s practiced their emergency braking lately? Watching something on tube realised I hadn’t bothered in long time so on deserted rural road did several complete panic style stops with both brake controls from my normal cruising speed of a bit of spare change into tolerance zone on 200kg plus bike with ABS.

First stop was about 36m ish by completely unscientific paces from back of bike so about 40m prob, in simpler terms it was about 4 of the white centre line stripes. Later attempts were slightly better so yeah maybe doing more often is good idea.

Pretty sobering walking back to where you started and looking forward to where you did stop, looks strangely familiar to the distance you see wreckage scattered over and it looks further than you’d like. Anyhow have a go now and then…

[rastuscat]

So who’s practiced their emergency braking lately? Watching something on tube realised I hadn’t bothered in long time so on deserted rural road did several complete panic style stops with both brake controls from my normal cruising speed of a bit of spare change into tolerance zone on 200kg plus bike with ABS.

First stop was about 36m ish by completely unscientific paces from back of bike so about 40m prob, in simpler terms it was about 4 of the white centre line stripes. Later attempts were slightly better so yeah maybe doing more often is good idea.

Pretty sobering walking back to where you started and looking forward to where you did stop, looks strangely familiar to the distance you see wreckage scattered over and it looks further than you’d like. Anyhow have a go now and then…

Thing is, for practise you are eliminating reaction time. You know you are going to be braking, and probably even where. So reaction time isn't a factor.

In the real world, you don't get time to sit back and make a rational judgement as to the pros and cons of rear v front, the merits of the reason you have to brake, that sort of thing.

The point of repeated practise of good technique is to form muscle memory, so that when the doo hits the fan, you know what you'll do : you'll do what you have repeatedly taught yourself to do.

Unless you haven't bothered. Which significantly increases the chances that you'll snatch the front brake, lock the front wheel, and that you'll join the leagues of those who have visited the emergency room to have grit scrubbed from your flesh wounds.

Everyone thinks they know how to use the brakes. Because they don't know what they don't know. And nobody thinks their technique will let them down, until it does.

[F5 Dave]

Was thinking the other day; what proportion of regularly used bikes these days are ABS?
Have we seen a reduction of accidents, or reduction of severity in those kind of accidents?

The Ancient Hurt report said that many people do nothing and plow into the object. Can't help them. Perhaps we have 3 groups more. Like Goldilocks let's call them the underbrakers, the over brakers, and the just right brakers..

The just right brakers are on the limit and are most likely to come off best.
The overbrakers will be saved from a lock up crash by ABS, and ABS has got so much better over the years, that they will probably be sitting level with the just right brakers.

That sounds great .
So that means the underbrakers need to practice to believe how much and how quickly they can apply the brake..

The do nothing group could also train to be prepared. A suspicious mind imagines other people's potential mistakes and is already having a plan and positioning themselves to brake, reducing reaction time greatly.

A surprise wastes a lot of time.

[rastuscat]

A surprise wastes a lot of time.

It's one of the ironies of a good Ride Forever course, if delivered well.

We want people to be awesome at emergency braking, so that gets covered.

But the rest of the course is all about riding with awareness and anticipation, which mean you don't have to emergency brake.

Funny, I've practised emergency braking for years, but haven't had to use it for just as long.