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Thread: Airbags, hmmm.

  1. #31
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    Guilty as charged but pertinent to the off roady, dirty, skew.
    Manopausal.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pritch View Post
    I originally brought a cell phone to have with me on solo rides. If I should have need of a phone I want a fully charged one. YMMV.
    I think you've totally missed the point and taken the conversation down an odd tangent. The analogy with cellphone batteries being flat when needed was brought about by Fortnine with regards to battery powered airbag protection.

  3. #33
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    The Helite airbag vest is triggered by a tether attached to the bike, no batteries involved. I know this as I've ordered one after doing the yanking on the tether to inflate it, in a demo situation.
    Is it a good idea? To me it is, especially on account of the HANS device effect under the helmet.

    The next step might be an ELB for once I get back to riding in the boonies all by myself. The value of an emergency locator beacon is undeniable for solo riders or even groups who venture off the beaten track.

    Congrats to all you buggers for taking this thread onto a tangent

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    I've got one (Helite Turtle) and have been riding with it for some time... about a year and a half now or so.

    Anyway, no issues with movement, head checks etc aren't a problem, in fact I hardly notice it while riding. It's less intrusive than a back protector or under-jacket armour. The vest can shift a bit sideways if the gas canister and mechanism contact the fuel tank or tankbag - this tends to happen if I lean forward unfortunately. It's generally best to not have wallet, phone etc in jacket pockets underneath the gas gear for this reason.

    I am finding problems with it. Not to do with the design. These are very human issues...

    - social acceptance from other riders

    - dickhead drivers and what I can only describe as 'fuckery'

    The first I can fully agree with, the hi-vis Turtle really does not look cool. At all. Such is the price of full length spine protection including tailbone and neck bracing. The Tech-Air 5 or similar is waaaay better for on-ride respect.

    The second is rare but pretty scary when it does happen... tailgating, getting overtaken and then cut off at the end of passing lanes, un-necessarily close overtakes (reach out and touch them as they're going by stuff). No overt and thus proveable hostile action though (so far). The vehicles doing it are all the same: bogan shitboxes. There's always been an element of this but it does seem to have increased since I started wearing the Turtle. It's got me thinking seriously about saving again for the black version, thus trading off SMIDSY against fuckery... honestly it is getting this dangerous. Fucking Upper Hutt.

    All this said, after witnessing a mate's crash and what he had to go through during recovery, these days it's the back protector at a minimum and the Turtle for preference most of the time. A jacket alone isn't enough any more.

    Reckless - one of the advantages of the Helite gear is that recharging is simple, repack the vest at the side of the road and replace the CO2 canister. It's 5 minutes and $25. They're doing an electronic version of the Turtle these days as well but I don't have any direct experience with it.
    Yep needless wearing of hi vis will make you a target it just screams Karen in a world that is sick of the health and safety cancel culture. Perhaps make a biker style black vest cover for it???

    Good info in your review and experience.
    Govt gives you nothing because it creates nothing - Javier Milei

  5. #35
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    Cellphone battery - NEVER use Bluetooth, also turn of wifi otherwise it’s pinging trying to connect to something not there.
    Avoid using any GPS app that tracks your ride unless it’s for a special project or vid and you really want that info. Two hours of Strava in bike park would hammer my phone badly.
    Stay off FAKEBOOK, as all it’s algorythyms data rape you browser history and email clients and location data it smashes your battery.
    If your riding in a sporty manner it should be powered off anyway lest thectower ping data be incriminating in an accident investigation...
    Govt gives you nothing because it creates nothing - Javier Milei

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    Cellphone battery - NEVER use Bluetooth, also turn of wifi otherwise it’s pinging trying to connect to something not there.
    Avoid using any GPS app that tracks your ride unless it’s for a special project or vid and you really want that info. Two hours of Strava in bike park would hammer my phone badly.
    Stay off FAKEBOOK, as all it’s algorythyms data rape you browser history and email clients and location data it smashes your battery.
    If your riding in a sporty manner it should be powered off anyway lest thectower ping data be incriminating in an accident investigation...
    Easiest way is to put the phone into flight mode. Just remember to turn it off if you want to use the phone to communicate...

    Or put the phone into a power save mode. Mine will last 2 days on medium power saving.

  7. #37
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    Or just buy a phone that's not a POS.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    Yep needless wearing of hi vis will make you a target it just screams Karen in a world that is sick of the health and safety cancel culture. Perhaps make a biker style black vest cover for it???

    Good info in your review and experience.
    Or in the real world you could just buy a black one.
    Moe: Well, I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I...I can't compete with that stuff.
    - The Simpsons

  9. #39
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    some thoughts from doing some reading, long post

    Thanks R650R, at this stage the plan is to save up again and get the black Turtle version 2 - it has a lot less of a tail on it than V1. There's also an e-Turtle 2 which has both in-vest and on-bike sensors mounted on the forks, ie deploys on a front wheel impact. Or at least it looks like it should. I'll have to do more reading to confirm.

    Good point about the Karen thing, when I'd bought the hi-vis turtle, I'd done that before Covid-19, roadcones everywhere and cancel culture. Things have changed and an angry response to safety initiatives... yes it's now something isn't it?

    I got interested and did a bit of reading on the airbags a few nights ago. Long post follows... TL;DR - any airbag spendy and a bit of a hassle but well worth it in a crash.

    There are four main types of motorcycle airbag:

    1) integral to the bike, like a car airbag - at present the only bike doing this is the Honda Goldwing.

    2) a vest worn over normal riding gear - examples are the Helite Turtle, Hit-Air, Sidi DPS Tex Vest and multiple clones

    3) a vest worn under the jacket - Alpinestars Tech Air 5, Dainese Smart D-Air etc

    4) an entire jacket with integral airbag - these can be textile ADV style jackets, high speed race suits, or anything in between - Helite, Dainese, Alpinestars etc all do these.

    Triggering is either a leash and pull mechanism or electronic, software and algorithm controlled firing. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

    Leash: Simple, cheap, as reliable as the rider, will only fire if rider parts company from the bike. A leash may not work in a low side slide, for example. To my mind the biggest disadvantage is that the leash introduces a time and distance delay on the airbag deploying. This is critical in a vehicle vs bike crash. Generally re-loadable at the side of the road post deployment due to association with CO2 cartridges and simple airbag designs, low tech but user friendly.

    Electronic: yes it's got batteries, yes they go flat. Reports from users are that this isn't really an issue in real life, if you can look after a cellphone then you can look after an airbag. The big issue with most of the electronic vests isn't accidental firing or failure to fire (that's pretty well sorted these days), it's that most of the manufacturers require a factory re-pack. That said, how often does a rider wipe out? One potential issue is the technology aging badly; how well will the fancy whizzbangs be working in five, ten, more years? Generally: more convenient, more responsive, more expensive.

    Firing and deployment time: something interesting here, fill times from triggering are widely quoted but deployment times from a crash starting are not. Granted, crashes are chaotic events but still, knowing delays from a standard crash like the front wheel hitting the flank of the vehicle would be nice... nobody quotes these. Instead you get "40ms from firing to full airbag pressure" and so on. These are deceptive. Airbag volume comes into it too: small airbags fire faster but protect less.

    Then there's this key question: what sort of crash does the rider want to protect against?

    The under jacket vests and race suits appear to be better for mostly horizontal, low-height, high speed crashes such as found on a racetrack, particularly crashes with a slide. They can offer shoulder protection but are limited by the jacket collar in terms of neck bracing. Collarbone protection against the helmet rim can also be an issue due to the low front volumes of some of the vests.

    The over jacket, high volume vests like the Turtle appear to be best at protecting a rider against low speed, high height crashes, ie get catapulted in the crash, come down hard, or sudden stoppages like going into things roadside such as kerbs or lamp posts. Currently vests really are vests, they don't have sleeves, and I haven't seen anything on the market that would protect a rider's shoulders. All the popular choices offer excellent neck bracing.

    The integral stuff, airbags built directly into jackets or race suits, is still a rarity and I didn't find any direct rider reports. I'd be very surprised if this wasn't as good as or better than either of the vest types though.

    Any type offer significantly more protection than any armour on the market, purely by volume: more 'shell' around the rider means longer and softer deceleration time. Bring the G's down and the consequences come down too. Almost everyone who has crashed wearing an airbag is emphatic that it helped: injuries greatly reduced or eliminated completely. The usual story is that after crashing in it, they now won't ride without it.

    All of the airbag kit gets in the way of cooling airflow, to greater or lesser degree, but then so does riding in anything more than a t-shirt. My experience with the Turtle was that it reduced cooling airflow through a mesh front jacket but didn't eliminate it.

    There's a history. Bits of the airbag technology appear to have been around for some time. From what I've seen, the Hit-Air has been on the market since the early 90's. Helite got into it through equestrian stuff and riders coming off horses head-first, which is why they've got such an emphasis on neck protection. Dainese and Alpinestars have been highly involved with racetrack and Moto GP stuff, hence their gear's ability in a high speed slide. Convergence to a standard set of solutions appears to be happening but things are still evolving.

    Pricing is still the main entry barrier for most, even though it's coming down. Roughly $1K is about standard for a vest at the moment, with integral suits and so on costing more. Cheapo no-name brand options are available, particularly in the leash and CO2 technology. If self-employed, outages from being able to work - or reductions in income protection insurance etc - may be worth thinking about, but most of us will simply have to pony up the readies and put up with the cost.

    I think that they're going to start gaining wide acceptance. I'm starting to see that with my own gear - anyone who's crashed or had neck or spinal surgery gets very interested in the Turtle, for example. At present though, the pricing is a serious entry barrier and for most riders, crashing is an abstract risk. It looks like there's some way to go yet. It's a shame. As someone else put it, the cost of a decent airbag vest at present is the same price as a good helmet and there's no longer any debate about that.

  10. #40
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    Good summary OddDuck

    I don't think a tethered Vest would have helped me when I smashed my collarbone at a race meeting.
    The pack was still pretty much around me, then the guy in front highsided. Tried to lean in and go under but lowsided
    My shoulder hit before me and the bike parted company so I agree with your analysis about tethers - pretty much spot on
    I do wonder if my Leatt had anything to do with it as they are rumored to break collarbones but pretty sure the shoulder directly impacted the ground.

    Anyway just a little confirmation of your findings
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    Yep needless wearing of hi vis will make you a target it just screams Karen in a world that is sick of the health and safety cancel culture. Perhaps make a biker style black vest cover for it???

    Good info in your review and experience.
    you can get black ones apparently

  12. #42
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    The airbag vest is an improvement. As per OddDuck's review, it won't protect in all crashes, but it's a step forward for some accidents.

    As for being seen as a health & safety fan, oh heck I couldn't care less.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by BMWST? View Post
    you can get black ones apparently
    Jesus, now we are off on a royal family tangent.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reckless View Post
    Plenty of Airbags here talk about a thread hijack - Cellphones - jeepers LMAO
    Air bags are not the anwer to all safety concerns. This dude hasn't even got gloves or boots...
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  15. #45
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    Helmets won't protect you from every kind of injury either, but most of us wouldn't ride without one these days.

    If an airbag jacket/vest reduces the level of trauma for neck/spine/hip injuries to the same extent as helmets do for head injuries, surely that would be a no brainer.
    Moe: Well, I'm better than dirt. Well, most kinds of dirt. I mean not that fancy store bought dirt. That stuffs loaded with nutrients. I...I can't compete with that stuff.
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