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Thread: Airbags, hmmm.

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremlin View Post
    We would have to sacrifice a lot of movement to protect in all situations. Much like insurance, it increases the odds of being covered, but won't protect in every situation.

    I've considered a neck brace, but it would reduce the ability to carry out headchecks. In some situations, it would give me more protection, but would increase my risk in others... Pros and cons
    The Helite inflates significantly around the neck and shoulders. it would give you neck brace protection, without being in the way when not needed.

  2. #47
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    Good summary there Odduck.

    I view them as being just another tool that's there for you to use should you feel the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. I own an older Helite Airbag jacket that I use as well. That's good but heavy and ruddy warm when the weather warms up - Hence I prefer the vest option.

    The way I view it it's too late to debate it if you have a spill and you wish you'd been wearing one.

  3. #48
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    I'm going to chime in on this thread with a slight tangent: a few years ago, Formula 1 introduced the HALO, to improve driver safety.

    At the time it was criticized:

    - Restricted driver Vision
    - Ugly
    - Not in the Spirit of F1
    - Impede a drivers ability to exit in the event of a Crash

    etc.

    When Romain Grosjean speared into and through the barrier at over 160 KPH and burst into flame, It turns out that the HALO was the thing that stopped him from pretty much getting decapitated.

    Likewise I see many parallels between the new Biker Air-bags and the HALO. I'm certain that there will be some fringe scenarios where the Air Bag may cause additional injury or even death over an identical accident without.

    I'm also certain that the first and second generation of Air-bags will have ergonomic, comfort, technical issues that when exposed to the wider riding public will be identified and resolved.

    But all that said - Giving an extra layer of active protection to increase the chance of walking away from an Off is only ever going to be a good thing IMO
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

  4. #49
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    Crikey, I know F1 is fast but never realised the drivers wear parachutes.
    Manopausal.

  5. #50
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    Helite Turtle vs Alpinestars Tech-Air V comparison

    I've gone and bought a Tech-Air V in addition to the Turtle. I'd been checking various reviews online and there was something lacking: a side by side comparison of the two from an owner. Thought that this might be useful so am posting some direct experiences... and some pitfalls.

    The Tech-Air V was purchased after finally admitting that there's a problem with the Turtle: the gas canister and discharge / leash mechanism just don't work with a lean-forward sportsbike like the 900SS, which has a seat tucked in behind a high tank. The cylinder keeps engaging on the corner of the fuel tank during fast riding and pulling the vest sideways. This can get annoying, but it's also distracting - obviously not the best during a tricky corner. I'd considered the Turtle II as a replacement but even though the discharge cylinder is now covered, it's still in front and in the same position.

    The other issue with the Turtle vest is the large tail: this can be pushed upward by the raised pillion seat or cowling, and that pushed the entire vest up against the rider's helmet. It doesn't affect head mobility and therefore being able to look around, but it does get seriously annoying if it happens repeatedly.

    An upright position bike with a gently sloped fuel tank and a flat-ish seat (say, the Indian FTR1200) wouldn't have these problems. Even a sports-tourer like my ST2 doesn't really have these issues, as long as I don't tuck down into the tank. But on the 900SS it's a right pain, spoils the ride, and I'd finally decided I'd had enough, hence the purchase.

    A look at the photos of the two side by side should illustrate the biggest difference: priority in coverage. The Tech-Air V is all about upper body protection. The Turtle is all about full length spine protection plus coverage for the pelvis. Now, before someone chimes in with the suggestion that I ride with both... No. Thanks. One's enough. Really. At some point the ATGATT has to stop.

    Now for some direct experience... the two vests are very much chalk and cheese, even though they're supposed to do the same job.

    First few rides with the Turtle: having several moments of realising I'd forgotten to clip in before riding off, and therefore was riding without protection. Pull over, clip in, done. I did step off the bike without unclipping once or twice, but there was no deployment or dragging the bike over. The pull on the leash was enough to bring me up short before anything happened. Two weeks of normal riding got the clip-in, clip-out habits established and now I catch myself going to unclip while wearing a normal back protector or the TA V.

    First few rides with the TA V: I felt like I was wearing a hair trigger. Bump... BANG. Didn't happen, although I've taken to opening the jacket and unzipping the vest every time I'm off the bike and walking around. That habit is relaxing pretty rapidly, although I'm aware that there's a local story of a rider descending some steps, missing one, and having the vest go off before getting a foot safely down on the next step down. It reacts to a free fall that quickly.

    Riding the 900SS with the TA V: brilliant, no issues whatever with gear getting in the way. I can forget that it's there.

    Ventilation: the winner here is the Turtle. It can be worn slightly loose over a slightly loose jacket, with airflow available through the open center of the vest. Good air movement inside the jacket, even leathers, can be had if there's center mesh. The TA V is, despite mesh linings etc, very definitely riding while wearing a plastic bag. It's good for staying warm on a colder day, probably perfectly usable in summer with a wicking / cooling top of some kind - but I think I'll be taking breaks with jacket and vest off fairly frequently. I don't have any experience with the TA V and perforated leathers; it's possible that this would make life a lot more comfy.

    Visibility: with the TA V, I can high-vis or not at will with an affordable, easy to fold and carry Revit vest. With the Turtle, it's high-vis or black, decision made at purchase and lived with thereafter.

    Rain: the Turtle can get saturated without issues, even submerged fully, and I'd still expect it to work. The TA V doesn't seem to feature weather sealing on the recharge port and water ingression into the electronics is... probably not good. Riding in hosing down rain might be best avoided - the TA V definitely leads to a hump on the rider's back and this may affect the fit and neck sealing of wets. The TA V manual specifically bans submersion i.e. washing.

    Durability: both vests have clocks ticking on their use-by dates. The Turtle should have its airbag replaced every 5 years, and gas canisters should be weighed annually to ensure that there's still enough CO2. The TA V has to go in for servicing every two years.

    Deployment: haven't yet with either, want to keep it that way. The Turtle can be repacked and recharged roadside, which is a major advantage on a multiday back country tour. Replacement of the airbag should happen after the fifth deployment. The TA V requires packing and sending to the Alpinestars agent on each deployment, plus paying a fee.

    Dirt and Cleaning: the Turtle picks up bugs, road tar and dust, but it's no issue to sponge it down at the end of the day. Soap and lukewarm water does the job. The TA V can be lightly swabbed with a cloth dampened with water, but that's it... no chemicals of any kind. I haven't had to do this yet. Since it is basically a garment, I'm expecting it to get a bit stinky before it's in for service, when the lining gets removed and washed.

    Triggering: the Turtle fires if the leash is yanked good and hard. The TA V fires if an algorithm using sensors and crash data decides that it's time to go. The Turtle will not protect against a lowside if the rider stays with the bike. The TA V is not really compatible with a dirt riding type environment such as might be found adventuring - what is described as "light gravel road riding" is about the limit. It doesn't like jumps, big bumps, or wheelies.

    Abrasion resistance: the Turtle will slide, the TA V is simply not abrasion resistant and needs a jacket over the top.

    Readiness checks: the Turtle's clip can be checked with a gloved hand while riding, to confirm that the leash is clipped in and the vest is good to go. The TA V is a different story: the LED status indicator, by the nature of the design, is underneath the jacket. Checking that lights are still green means pulling over and opening up to have a look. There is an app (of course) but I haven't tried using this yet, and am not a fan of having a device on the bars anyway - but it could be done this way if the rider was inclined. So far I haven't had an issue with confidence in the vest, provided it's zipped up before the jacket is done up. I have almost made that mistake. The TA V has to be zipped from bottom to top, with the velcro flap closed, to activate. If closing garments by feel, with layers of zips, it can be easy to get the wrong one and think it's the vest.

    Delay in readiness: the Turtle is good to go as soon as the clip locks. The TA V has a brief System Check, approx 30 secs or so from the zips being closed. During this check it will not fire. Walking around, mounting the bike, initial riding can all be a part of this time... and if it fails the system check, the vest will not fire. Indication is only by LEDs on that waist panel.

    Riding gear compatibility: the Turtle will go over anything. Existing kit does not need to be updated, all a rider has to do is to get the sizing right. However sizing can change if layers go on for winter or come off for summer... there is some strap adjustment in the Turtle but in practice I've found that it's got very limited range.

    The TA V is another story. This is the main pitfall for anyone wanting one: there must be enough room inside riding gear for the airbag to deploy, or the rider must have gear with stretch panels. Currently only Alpinestar's limited offerings of Tech-Air Compatible leathers offer these.

    The manual for the TA V states:

    Measure the circumference of the chest, just under the armpits - this is dimension A

    Lay the jacket flat and measured the width, armpit to armpit - this is dimension B

    If B > (1/2 A) + 12, then you're good to go with the Tech-Air system. The manual doesn't state units but I'll assume it's cm.

    This translates to 4 cm of clearance around the entire perimeter of whatever the rider is currently wearing, with the TA V in place. It's terribly easy to hear that if you've got 4cm in front then you're OK, no need for more bucks. No. You need 4cm in front, 4cm on each side, and 4cm all across the back, at the same time. A loose textile jacket will do it but leathers can be a different story - in my case I'm now looking at replacing my current set with the Alpinestars ones. I really wish I'd known this properly before making the purchase decision.

    On that note... the TA V will work with 2-piece leathers, expansion problem aside. The tail of the airbag tucks under the raised back panel of the pants quite easily, perimeter zip done up, rider's good to go, and from that point on the vest just feels like a normal back protector.

    Sizing / shaping: Again, the Turtle is a bit more easygoing here. There are mens and women's options for just about everyone. The TA V sizing options are more limited and there have been expressions of frustration with sizing from some riders, especially women. Best tried on in the shop - really.

    Social acceptance: for many of us, the biggie.... hands down the TA V for the win. The black version of the Turtle is quite discrete though, especially worn over synthetics.

    Crash Protection: yeah. Not sure. About all I'll say here is that both vests feature integral, passive, CE certified back protectors. These will work even if the airbag doesn't. The TA V will protect a rider's shoulders, the Turtle will protect a rider's neck, and frankly it's a bit frustrating that a choice has to be made but currently that's the way things are.
    Last edited by OddDuck; 14th November 2021 at 16:22. Reason: note about ventilation with perf leathers / System Check

  6. #51
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    Anyone using a the new tech air 10? Thoughts?

  7. #52
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    Jonny fart pants kills a Yamaha.

    Hmmm, must remember to put a box on the front of me bike.

    Manopausal.

  8. #53
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    I have a Tech Air 5 for racing and road.

    I have no problem with the app and changing from road to race modes.

    Road
    Alpinestars Faster V2 Road jacket Near new, still smelled like leather, off marketplace for 4 hundy and find no issues with the Tech 5.
    You can leave the sleeve vents open and the main jacket zip down to about the level of the Tech5 activator to get some Air in.
    Putting the jacket on over the Tech 5 is not an Issue but you have to take two things off when you stop and then find a place to hang or put them.
    I dont find the hump at the back a problem.
    The tech 5 is expensive so I am wary of someone pinching it.
    And OddDuck Is right all my old gear became redundant unless I wanted to ride without the Tech 5. The proper Alpinestars jackets fit best because of the expansion panels.


    Track
    I have Alpinestars Ignition V2 race suit and had an event where it went off into turn 1 at Puke and thats fast.
    Glad I had it as my first thought was shit the grass is soft then realised I was blown up.
    I ride with it all the time now road and track.
    Recharge was $350-00

    The only Issue I have with the Tech 5 vs the full race suit is with the design of the Tech 5 back unit.
    It should slope or ramp down to the vest.
    I can't get my bloody suit on without assistance as the tech unit has a lip under (very bad design) and catches on the unit.
    Really bad design for something supposed to do track and road and they don't do the zip in "race model" one anymore by the looks.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If I could afford 2k I'd get the full Tech 10 suit depending on the recharge costs?? Being smashed off the track proved how good they are 10/10.
    On a Motorcycle you're penetrating distance, right along with the machine!! In a car you're just a spectator, the windshields like a TV!!

    'Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out! Shouting, ' Holy sh!t... What a Ride!! '

  9. #54
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    My humps seems way slimmer than that. I'd take a picture but just dropped it off today for first two year service.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    My humps seems way slimmer than that. I'd take a picture but just dropped it off today for first two year service.
    You will notice its pulled up out of its seating because the suit wont slide over the top.
    I spoke to Scott from Crown Kiwi today about modding it but he was concerned about warranty.
    Says they get a bit of complaint about this even with the new Tech 10.
    The zipper hole in the Alpinestars Ignition Missile isn't the best either.

    Very lucky my Missus pits for me 9/10 times. Bikes up and down, Warmers on/off, Lunch, Lap times, food when we Travel/sleep over.
    TBH Hate going without her now LOL
    She's also in charge of graphic design LOL

    Click image for larger version. 

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    On a Motorcycle you're penetrating distance, right along with the machine!! In a car you're just a spectator, the windshields like a TV!!

    'Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out! Shouting, ' Holy sh!t... What a Ride!! '

  11. #56
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    Mine is used in 2 piece leathers so no doing the dance of the Neanderthal trying to get it on, although I could do that dance in my sleep from 27 years racing. Just wished I'd had the air vest then.

    If whilst sleeping in a chair because you can't lie down, on the 2nd night a vision had come to me and said " pay a thousand dollars now and youd be tucked up next to the wife comfortably sleeping. . Ok how about 1350?" I'd be throwing 20s in every direction.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  12. #57
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    That video in the first instance delivers him to the ground in the friendliest way possible. Not that I'd have the guts to do that voluntarily. You could easily tumble and test more than you wished.

    The 2nd one is just plain scary. He jumps and flips, but you can see how easy it would be to get legs and feet caught up on way through bars and fairing. Most people wouldn't have presence of mind to jump, largely because they didn't plan to ride into a stationery object.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    That video in the first instance delivers him to the ground in the friendliest way possible. Not that I'd have the guts to do that voluntarily. You could easily tumble and test more than you wished.

    The 2nd one is just plain scary. He jumps and flips, but you can see how easy it would be to get legs and feet caught up on way through bars and fairing. Most people wouldn't have presence of mind to jump, largely because they didn't plan to ride into a stationery object.
    Yeah, going over the bars can be a world of pain. Done it a few times off road when a big hole, ditch, tree or rock has leapt out and accosted me. Or the front wheel spotted a possum. Always really painful.

    The "having a lie down" technique is just tough on gear, praise the lord and pass the ATGATT.
    A long time ago and far, far away I had to lay my Aprillia down to go underneath a truck and trailer which was right across the road. Long story which I will never forget.
    Scratched and bent bike but still rideable and pretty knackered textiles. Still gaffa tapeable.

    I may end up with an airbag jacket at some point but it will take me a bit longer to get exploding pants. Probably have a sidecar by then, anyway.
    Manopausal.

  14. #59
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    I'm waiting for practical dirt vest. Must carry two charges and be owner swappable back in the pits. Won't be perfect as to when it goes off so needs passive armour as well.
    Don't you look at my accountant.
    He's the only one I've got.

  15. #60
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    Thinking about the consequences of my Superman impressions, a nice wee air bag that tucks in the front of my undies would be comforting.
    Smacking the boys off the petrol cap at a fair rate of knots does knock the wind out of me.

    Bring back the codpiece.
    Manopausal.

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