Judith Collins getting the arse.

[FJRider]

Nor could merely being in the proximity of jews or blacks infect you wth a life threatening virus.

In these times ... Aucklander's may well do though ...

[F5 Dave]

TDL you complete Turkey. An Unvaccinated person is 20 times more likely to pass on the virus. Why on earth would you want them in your shop?

I mean For Fucks Sake. Are you really incapable of working that out? I'm typing this slowly so you might be able to keep up.

[husaberg]

TDL you complete Turkey. An Unvaccinated person is 20 times more likely to pass on the virus. Why on earth would you want them in your shop?

I mean For Fucks Sake. Are you really incapable of working that out? I'm typing this slowly so you might be able to keep up.

Yes Yes. Good luck
TDL seem to think its a god given right for the unvaxed to knowingly and callously risk the lives of others to infect other people. Go merica
Nearly as funny as the time he claimed a gun law voted for by all the MP bar one was undemocratic.
If you want him t go quiet ask him if he handed in his illegal AR10 firearm

[TheDemonLord]

This may surprise you ... but I don't care why.

And it's supposed to be free as well. Your point is ... ??

Right - Something has to be done, by someone and has to be done for Free - with the compulsion of Government behind it - Do you not see the scenario where that might be an issue?

The last few days ... my wife and I were out and about seeing where we could (or couldn't) go. Public buildings, Cafe's, businesses, and not once were we asked for our "Covid Pass". That right seems to be still there for me still.

The signs said (in a few places) that a Covid pass must be produced on request. Or that we must have a Covid Pass. But nobody requested it. Put up a sign saying "Wet Paint" an watch the result. Everybody will stick their finger on it to check. The importance and relevance of signs are overrated.

You mean the Business owners are being asked to police the system. In actual reality (around here) they're not.

The reality is ... ALL businesses are not. Go and check that out yourself if you don't believe me

But I would bet that you pick which laws you will or wont adhere to at any (chosen by you) time. So your "I hold to ... " is your usual bullshit.

There is nowhere I cannot go now ... that that I was able to go prior to the Pandemic. So my answer is yes.

I'm lumping all these quotes together, because I think you prove my over-arching point.

Firstly the question is why in your area Business owners are paying lip-service to the rule? A Quick aside - good on them and everyone should be supporting the businesses that are engaging in Civil disobedience.

But there's a few answers:

1: They don't want to piss off their customer base
2: They can't be bothered
3: They don't want to discriminate

You asked about me picking and choosing which laws I follow and which I don't - and you are correct, there are some laws (such as this one) that are fundamentally immoral. I suspect that on some level the Shop owners also feel that way, which is why they aren't following the rules either.

Do you consider the Shop owners you speak of to be moral or immoral? And if so, what sets them apart from me?

You STILL haven't paid that cost ... we're still waiting for your death. Will you be quick about it .. ??

Well, I'm not going to sell myself cheap.

I very much doubt that you do. The laws of this country are there to ensure the rights and freedoms of all citizens in NZ are upheld.

Unless you're unvaccinated, apparently. If the Laws were simply to uphold the natural rights of all citizens, I'd be extremely happy - but we both know that is not the case.

There is nowhere I cannot go now ... that that I was able to go prior to the Pandemic. So my answer is yes.

For now, you might find that the Police end up making an example of a business, then you might find things change, but even then - just because you aren't personally affected by an injustice, doesn't make the injustice any less wrong.

[TheDemonLord]

Nor could Jews make themselves unJewish. The unvaccinated can easily arrange to be vaccinated. Their problems are of their own creation.

Have you ever read the history of what people will do, in the face of Government torture, tyranny and Death, when it comes to their Religious Beliefs? Asking someone to convert, at the point of a sword rarely works. And Yes, I do consider the faith-based position of the Anti-vaxxers to be fundamentally religious in conception.

In terms of Jews - the Nazis certainly used Synagogue membership lists and Parish lists to track down people who were Jewish - both of which have nought to do with Genetics and everything to do with the Faith.

Actions have consequences.

Says the Mafioso holding a brick, whilst demanding the Protection money.

They are quite happy to endanger everybody else with whom they come in contact, they merit zero sympathy or concern.

See, this is where it gets interesting - When you drive on the road - you are (by your definitions) endangering everybody else around you, yet you still drive.

If you were to be involved in an Accident, would you merit zero sympathy or concern? Afterall, you chose to drive, and Actions have Consequences, right?

Or does that standard only apply to the undesirables or the untermensch of society?

Tamaki and others of that ilk are not a religion, they're a grift.

Don't get me wrong, Brian Tamaki is monstrous thundercunt of the highest order. That said, even a broken clock can be correct twice a day.

[TheDemonLord]

TDL you complete Turkey. An Unvaccinated person is 20 times more likely to pass on the virus.

Erm, that's I believe within 2 months of the last shot.

Afterwhich someone who is double jabbed and is an asymptomatic carrier has between a 60-80% chance to pass on the Virus. I believe it was the Israelis that did the study on that, and I've seen multiple articles (from reputable sources like New Scientiest, Nature etc.) that confirm Herd Immunity with Covid specifically because of the fact that vaccination doesn't stop transmission is unfeasible.

Why on earth would you want them in your shop?

Because I'm vaccinated so I'm not worried.

Again, what do the Vaccinated have to fear from the Unvaccinated.

If it's the world-ending pandemic it's portrayed (up to 99% survival rate and doesn't affect Children!), then all the Unvaccinated will die off and I'll be fine.
If it's NOT the world-ending pandemic it's portrayed as, then all the unvaccinated will be fine and so will I.

I mean For Fucks Sake. Are you really incapable of working that out? I'm typing this slowly so you might be able to keep up.

I'd suggest the reason you're typing slowly is because your trying to resolve the above hypocrisy.

But don't worry, I read what you wrote quite quickly, so it all evens out.

[TheDemonLord]

Yes Yes. Good luck
TDL seem to think its a god given right for the unvaxed to knowingly and callously risk the lives of others to infect other people. Go merica

No you midwit, The God Given right is that you can't use your fears and concerns to compel other people to do what you want. And yes, that Right sometimes mean people Die, but people die all the time from the results of their Freedoms.

Nearly as funny as the time he claimed a gun law voted for by all the MP bar one was undemocratic.

Was that the one where they rushed it through, artificially changed the submission process so that those opposed only had 24 hours to make submissions and didn't allow people who want to give a verbal submission to do so?

Yeah, Reaaaaaaaaaaal Democratic.

If you want him t go quiet ask him if he handed in his illegal AR10 firearm

And I told you I never agreed to give you an answer and that the only answer you will ever get is: "I did the right thing."

[sugilite:Me]

Offf!
Another kick in the but for the corrupt bitch

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...irst-reshuffle

[TheDemonLord]

Offf!
Another kick in the but for the corrupt bitch

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/pol...irst-reshuffle

Well, well....

He's starting to grow on me

[pritch]

Have you ever read the history of what people will do, in the face of Government torture, tyranny and Death, when it comes to their Religious Beliefs? Asking someone to convert, at the point of a sword rarely works. And Yes, I do consider the faith-based position of the Anti-vaxxers to be fundamentally religious in conception.

In terms of Jews - the Nazis certainly used Synagogue membership lists and Parish lists to track down people who were Jewish - both of which have nought to do with Genetics and everything to do with the Faith.



Says the Mafioso holding a brick, whilst demanding the Protection money.



See, this is where it gets interesting - When you drive on the road - you are (by your definitions) endangering everybody else around you, yet you still drive.

If you were to be involved in an Accident, would you merit zero sympathy or concern? Afterall, you chose to drive, and Actions have Consequences, right?

Or does that standard only apply to the undesirables or the untermensch of society?



Don't get me wrong, Brian Tamaki is monstrous thundercunt of the highest order. That said, even a broken clock can be correct twice a day.

That is all based on a false premise. This is not about religion. It's about misinformation.

One particularly gullible mother is reportedly claiming that the vaccine made her fourteen year old daughter pregnant. And that's not even particularly silly these days.

[TheDemonLord]

That is all based on a false premise. This is not about religion. It's about misinformation.

One particularly gullible mother is reportedly claiming that the vaccine made her fourteen year old daughter pregnant. And that's not even particularly silly these days.

You missed the point.

I'm not saying Anti-Vaxxers are anti-vax because of a pre-existing Religion.

I'm saying that the Anti-Vaxx belief has all the hallmarks of being like a religion and that they hold it with such zeal that it would make even the most pious of Catholic blush.

[MD]

It was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Blacks allowed', it's was wrong when there were signs that said 'No Jews allowed' and it's also wrong when we have signs that say 'No Unvaccinated allowed'

I really shouldn't take the bait and respond because my discussions with anti-vaxxers has shown me that you cannot reason with stupid and ignorant.

There is a fundamental flaw you conveniently ignore in listing those above statements. Agreed it is wrong to deny entry because of someone's skin colour or religoius faith. [Assuming] the black or jew entering a building or shop posed no threat or harm to others. However, the difference you pretend not to grasp is an Unvaccinated person IS A THREAT. IS POSING A HIGHER RISK OF HARMING ALL OTHERS AROUND THEM and they know it, but selfishly think their right to endanger and harm others is superior to the others rights not to be harmed. This seems to be a common view by anti-vaxxers proclaiming they are fighting for all our rights and freedoms, so long as we acknowledge that they are more equal and are entited to a higher level of freedom than anybody else. Take you example further, what if someone in a burqa walked into a cafe and had a suicide belt of dynamite strapped around their waist, carried multiple guns screaming they have typhoid, the plague, cholera, measles and ebola. At what point would it become wise to restrict their access/movements? Or would their freedom and right to enter that shop still be paramount and unchallengeable on any grounds?

We are all facing a new health risk and all that is being asked is for us all to help reduce the chance of it spreading and people getting sick. I see that as simply showing some common courtesy and respect for others wellbeing.

Edit- Well done you getting the jab. Thanks for helping protect others

[TheDemonLord]

I really shouldn't take the bait and respond because my discussions with anti-vaxxers has shown me that you cannot reason with stupid and ignorant.

There is a fundamental flaw you conveniently ignore in listing those above statements. Agreed it is wrong to deny entry because of someone's skin colour or religoius faith. [Assuming] the black or jew entering a building or shop posed no threat or harm to others. However, the difference you pretend not to grasp is an Unvaccinated person IS A THREAT. IS POSING A HIGHER RISK OF HARMING ALL OTHERS AROUND THEM

Guess what the justification for all the instances of Discrimination that I listed was?

Whether it's a Physical threat or an existential threat, the justification is the same. Now, I'll agree that a Virus does pose more of an actual threat than any of the supposed threats used in the past, but I think it's a good time to remind everyone of 99% survival rate.

but selfishly think their right to endanger and harm others is superior to the others rights not to be harmed.

See, this is the wrong framing of how Rights work. Consider driving, when you drive, you are endangering other people (potentially) - if those other people turned round and denied you the ability to drive based on the fact you might be a risk to them, it would be wrong.

The correct way to frame it is that you only have agency over yourself: You can wear a Seatbelt, you can buy a vehicle with a bajillion Airbags, but you can't deny others their right to also drive.

Likewise with the Virus - You can get vaccinated, You can wear a Mask, You can social distance - but you cannot compel others to do the same based on the notion they might be a threat to you.

This seems to be a common view by anti-vaxxers proclaiming they are fighting for all our rights and freedoms, so long as we acknowledge that they are more equal and are entited to a higher level of freedom than anybody else.

They are.

The right to Stupid and the Freedom to do stupid things is the ultimate Right and Freedom, I don't mean this in a Glib sense, Consider DIY - we all do it, we all enjoy doing it - how many serious accidents and deaths occur around the home every year due to DIY - yet we hold this as a Right and a Freedom, knowing that some people are going to something stupid and twat themselves.

Take you example further, what if someone in a burqa walked into a cafe and had a suicide belt of dynamite strapped around their waist, carried multiple guns screaming they have typhoid, the plague, cholera, measles and ebola.

I mean, if they could walk with all that, then...

but jokes aside - let's break it down - if you're wearing an S-Vest, then there's a reasonable presumption that you have illegal intent. Open Carrying a Firearm in public is generally not allowed in NZ, with the only real exceptions being if it's done in an appropriate context e.g. going Hunting on DOC Land.

As for the pathogens you listed - all of them share a common: Significantly more deadly than Covid AND they also affect the Young as well.

Now, to answer the question seriously - there are times when a little restriction of freedoms is appropriate - I'll give a current example, I've got a membership to a Swimming Pool, as I like to Swim. Access to the Pools doesn't require a Passport, but access to the Steam room and Sauna do. Given that the Sauna is an enclosed area, with the perfect environment for Bugs to get passed (yes, this is more applicable to Bacteria rather than Viruses but if your body is fighting off one Virus, you're more susceptible to other things) and with close proximity - for that limited scenario, I think it's reasonable.

Same with visiting an Old Folks home or other facilities that have a significant elderly membership - there are pragmatic, limited scenarios where some temporary restrictions are appropriate - but the key words there are 'Temporary' and 'limited', whereas the Government plans so far have been anything but.

We are all facing a new health risk and all that is being asked is for us all to help reduce the chance of it spreading and people getting sick. I see that as simply showing some common courtesy and respect for others wellbeing.

Asked? No.
We are being dictated to, threats of Fines for non-compliance and infringing on peoples bodily autonomy.

For a 'Health Risk' with a 99% recovery rate...

Edit- Well done you getting the jab Thanks for helping protect others

I didn't get it to protect others. I got it to protect myself.

That distinction is important, See what I said above that we can only control ourselves and not others. I can't control that I might bump into someone who has Covid, despite all the precautions, therefore I took the steps I thought prudent to protect myself given I'm a bit on the portly side, even though statistically I'm likely to be fine, I've never had a negative side effect from any Vaccination (and this one was no different) - so there was no potential negatives for me and the science behind the Vaccine was fairly solid (in an ideal world, I'd have liked to have seen some long-term data, but consider it's just 2 shots, it's a small risk), so I decided to get it, but the decision to do so was only ever centered on myself.

[pete376403]

Have you ever read the history of what people will do, in the face of Government torture, tyranny and Death, when it comes to their Religious Beliefs? Asking someone to convert, at the point of a sword rarely works. And Yes, I do consider the faith-based position of the Anti-vaxxers to be fundamentally religious in conception.

In terms of Jews - the Nazis certainly used Synagogue membership lists and Parish lists to track down people who were Jewish - both of which have nought to do with Genetics and everything to do with the Faith..

The previous census had a requirement for Jews to identify themselves as such. The Nazis used this information to locate their victims. Would you believe that it was an IT project that produced the lists? "IBM and The Holocaust". Initially the number tattooed on the arm corresponded to the their punch card number, until eventually there were too many victims and the system broke down.

[TheDemonLord]

The previous census had a requirement for Jews to identify themselves as such. The Nazis used this information to locate their victims.

The Census was one method, but there were other methods - such as looking at Synagogue records - which in of itself has no Racial component and is purely ideological - and we know this because it includes converts to Judaism.

Would you believe that it was an IT project that produced the lists? "IBM and The Holocaust".

I absolutely would - I've read a little about that. One of the reasons I'm of the opinion that the Government should have the least possible information about me on record.

Initially the number tattooed on the arm corresponded to the their punch card number, until eventually there were too many victims and the system broke down.

I shouldn't laugh - because of the horrendous subject matter, but I've had issues with field length far more times than I'd like...