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Thread: Judith Collins getting the arse.

  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    The previous census had a requirement for Jews to identify themselves as such. The Nazis used this information to locate their victims. Would you believe that it was an IT project that produced the lists? "IBM and The Holocaust". Initially the number tattooed on the arm corresponded to the their punch card number, until eventually there were too many victims and the system broke down.
    Ya wasting your time anytime something happens he doesn't like he cries communism or nazi or undemocratic. or all three.
    He goes on with the rights of individuals and companies to stay or do what they like..... unless of course its something he doesn't like , like ban trump from twitter etc etc etc. then he will claim censorship etc etc.
    you would have to wonder if NZ was so bad why he doesn't go back to England under Boris the bestest ever tory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




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  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Ya wasting your time anytime something happens he doesn't like he cries communism or nazi or undemocratic. or all three.
    Yes, isn't it funny how Undemocratic, Communist and Fascist frequently share the same bed...

    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    He goes on with the rights of individuals and companies to stay or do what they like..... unless its something he doesn't like what they do, like ban trump from twitter etc etc etc
    I do - and in case you've forgotten, Free Speech is one of those rights.

    As for Twitter et al, There are two issues at play - one is the unequal application of the rules, I mean, Donald Trump was yeeted from the platform, but the Taliban still had Twitter accounts...

    The second is Quasi public spaces, whereby the Supreme Court has ruled that if a privately owned space has all the functionality of a Public space, then the protection of the 1st Amendment applies:

    "the more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who use it.” The Court continued, “Whether a corporation or a municipality owns or possesses the town[,] the public in either case has an identical interest in the functioning of the community in such manner that the channels of communication remain free."
    Now, whether or not you believe Twitter and social media at large to be covered by that is up to your interpretation, however the key thing here is 'opens up his property for use by the public in general' - which to me definitely describes Facebook, Youtube, Twitter - since for all three, an account is not required to view and there is no fee to join.

    Further to that, the 1st Amendment was written to protect anywhere that political speech was taking place in the public domain - which definitely describes Twitter.

    And you'll also note (because you're an idiot with a short memory) that Trump was prohibited, by the Federal Court - from blocking people on his twitter account under the auspices of the First Amendment - So, which is it? Is it private property when you want to ban Trump, but a public space when you want to hurl abuse at Trump?

    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    you would have to wonder if NZ was so bad why he doesn't go back to England under Boris the bestest ever tory.
    I like Boris - or at least, I liked pre-Covid Boris, there's many many many things I'm not happy with the UK Tory Government on. Like not repealing a whole load of Tony Blair's crap, not reigning in the BBC, Allowing the Migrant Crisis to continue etc.
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  3. #108
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    So 8 pages in, and I've just realised that I'd been misreading the title of this thread. My minds eye version I saw had an 'it in the' that just wasn't there.

    Makes my first post less funny,:

    [QUOTE=F5 Dave;1131193736]So is there a link to the original premise of this thread?

    Asking for a friend. [/QUOTE
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  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post
    So 8 pages in, and I've just realised that I'd been misreading the title of this thread. My minds eye version I saw had an 'it in the' that just wasn't there.

    Makes my first post less funny,
    If it's any consolation - I still laughed...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Right - Something has to be done, by someone and has to be done for Free - with the compulsion of Government behind it - Do you not see the scenario where that might be an issue?
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here ... but enlighten me ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I'm lumping all these quotes together, because I think you prove my over-arching point.

    Firstly the question is why in your area Business owners are paying lip-service to the rule? A Quick aside - good on them and everyone should be supporting the businesses that are engaging in Civil disobedience.
    Until they get caught/charged/fined.

    If you really support them ... Will you contribute to help pay their fines ??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    But there's a few answers:

    1: They don't want to piss off their customer base
    2: They can't be bothered
    3: They don't want to discriminate
    I'd say all of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    You asked about me picking and choosing which laws I follow and which I don't - and you are correct, there are some laws (such as this one) that are fundamentally immoral. I suspect that on some level the Shop owners also feel that way, which is why they aren't following the rules either.
    Law and Legislation cannot always be ignored for whatever reason you choose give. If the infection rate and hospitalization rates increase ... you can expect the fines to be commonplace. And increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Do you consider the Shop owners you speak of to be moral or immoral? And if so, what sets them apart from me?
    Morality is a seldom heard reason for breaking the law. I hadn't realized you were so virtuous ...


    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Well, I'm not going to sell myself cheap.
    $5.00 if you change your mind ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Unless you're unvaccinated, apparently. If the Laws were simply to uphold the natural rights of all citizens, I'd be extremely happy - but we both know that is not the case.
    ALL citizens include those that are vaccinated. And have the (Natural ??) Right to NOT have their safety of health put at risk ... by those that are NOT vaccinated. I believe THAT is a "Natural Right" THEY have.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    For now, you might find that the Police end up making an example of a business, then you might find things change, but even then - just because you aren't personally affected by an injustice, doesn't make the injustice any less wrong.
    Police might not act unless a complaint is made. They are busy people you know.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    The previous census had a requirement for Jews to identify themselves as such. The Nazis used this information to locate their victims. Would you believe that it was an IT project that produced the lists? "IBM and The Holocaust". Initially the number tattooed on the arm corresponded to the their punch card number, until eventually there were too many victims and the system broke down.
    And to take that further, much of the atrocity and death was enabled caused by private enterprise. Hitler took the rap but many of the death star were from poor work conditions at camps owned by corporations with links to American financiers in some cases. And many of the sunsets of the IG Farben group of companies are major players today that no one bats an eyelid about at their history....
    Law and order was maintained in the camps by selecting the worst known criminals in camps and giving them priviledges to do the deeds to keep inmates under control. Ironically called sommer commando....
    Anyhow a lot of that sounds awfully familiar to things in today s society.....

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here ... but enlighten me ...
    What do you call it when the state forces you to work?

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Until they get caught/charged/fined.

    If you really support them ... Will you contribute to help pay their fines ??
    By ensuring that they receive the maximum amount of my Patronage possible and encouraging others to do the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    I'd say all of the above.
    Glad you agree, because it makes the next point I'm about to make easier:

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Law and Legislation cannot always be ignored for whatever reason you choose give. If the infection rate and hospitalization rates increase ... you can expect the fines to be commonplace. And increased.

    Morality is a seldom heard reason for breaking the law. I hadn't realized you were so virtuous ...
    Not true, Civil Disobedience has long been a part of the tools of Protest in the Western world. Especially when a Law violates some of the principles that have guided our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    $5.00 if you change your mind ...
    I think we need a few more zeros after the first positive integer and before the decimal point

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    ALL citizens include those that are vaccinated. And have the (Natural ??) Right to NOT have their safety of health put at risk ... by those that are NOT vaccinated. I believe THAT is a "Natural Right" THEY have.
    No. They Don't. This is a very key philosophical point to understand and it happens to underpin all of our freedoms.

    Simply put - you cannot control other people, if you are concerned about your health being put at risk, the Liberal system allows you to take precautions to protect yourself - but it does not allow you to use your fears to infringe on the rights of others.

    Here's a little contrived scenario to highlight the point:

    If you are concerned about getting robbed when you go out at night, the Liberal system says you can do some of the following:

    - Choose not to go out
    - Choose to avoid high risk areas
    - Choose to go with friends
    - Choose to carry a self-defence tool
    - Choose not to carry any valuables etc.

    All of which are decisions you make by yourself, for yourself.

    However, if you were to demand that in order for you to go safely out at night, that all Men between the ages of 15 and 35 have to be locked up (the biggest demographic that commits crime) - that would be wholly illiberal. Because it is a Decision that you are making for other people.

    That's effectively the end-result of what you are advocating for, ever increasing amounts of tyranny and state control in the name of Safety - You don't have a right to be Safe, you have a right to be Free. They are fundamentally not the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Police might not act unless a complaint is made. They are busy people you know.
    And yet when there is a political Goal, suddenly they find time, resources, money and man-power....
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  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    And to take that further, much of the atrocity and death was enabled caused by private enterprise. Hitler took the rap but many of the death star were from poor work conditions at camps owned by corporations with links to American financiers in some cases. And many of the sunsets of the IG Farben group of companies are major players today that no one bats an eyelid about at their history....
    Law and order was maintained in the camps by selecting the worst known criminals in camps and giving them priviledges to do the deeds to keep inmates under control. Ironically called sommer commando....
    Anyhow a lot of that sounds awfully familiar to things in today s society.....
    Read: the holocaust was bad management practices? You do really have no bounds to your misinformation.

    Expecting flat earth next.

    And conditions on the death star was probably more Darth Vader's bag, we can give you that.
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  9. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    What do you call it when the state forces you to work?
    It's called employment. Apparently going out of fashion in some places.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    By ensuring that they receive the maximum amount of my Patronage possible and encouraging others to do the same.
    Great. I bet you run out of money before they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Glad you agree, because it makes the next point I'm about to make easier:
    I'm waiting to see what your point is ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Not true, Civil Disobedience has long been a part of the tools of Protest in the Western world. Especially when a Law violates some of the principles that have guided our society.
    Breaking the law is not always successful. Sometimes it backfires ... and all your promised support vanishes. What do the do then ... ???

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I think we need a few more zeros after the first positive integer and before the decimal point
    Nah ... you'd be overpaid at $5.00

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    No. They Don't. This is a very key philosophical point to understand and it happens to underpin all of our freedoms.
    So ... It's ok for business owners to allow those illegally entering their business, and potentially endangering the health of their (legal) customers, and you say they have to because it's not their right to stop them entering their business .. ??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Simply put - you cannot control other people, if you are concerned about your health being put at risk, the Liberal system allows you to take precautions to protect yourself - but it does not allow you to use your fears to infringe on the rights of others.
    The Covid Pass is law. The business's can use that law to protect themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    And yet when there is a political Goal, suddenly they find time, resources, money and man-power....
    And they'll win the next election too.

    All any opposition seem to do is score an own goal.



    Still waiting for your point .... just saying ...
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  10. #115
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  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    It's called employment. Apparently going out of fashion in some places.
    Read again what I said, There's a word there that you are skipping: "Forces". If you are Forced to work, is it employment?

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Great. I bet you run out of money before they do.
    Well, so far that's not happened....

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Breaking the law is not always successful. Sometimes it backfires ... and all your promised support vanishes. What do the do then ... ???
    No one ever said doing what is morally right was easy.

    In fact, the very nature of it being difficult to do is why it's considered a Virtue.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Nah ... you'd be overpaid at $5.00
    The Market would tend to disagree...

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    So ... It's ok for business owners to allow those illegally entering their business, and potentially endangering the health of their (legal) customers, and you say they have to because it's not their right to stop them entering their business .. ??
    Is it okay to stop Muslims from entering your Business, because they might potentially endanger the health of your customers, simply on the basis of their deeply held Faith?

    I'd say that would fall under Discrimination and would be wrong. It's wrong to do it at an interpersonal level and it is VERY wrong when done at a legislative and Governmental level.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    The Covid Pass is law. The business's can use that law to protect themselves.
    Yeah, Laws =/= Moral. Apartheid was Law, so was Slavery - does this mean that both of these were just and Moral because they were legal?

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    And they'll win the next election too.

    All any opposition seem to do is score an own goal.
    Well, so far the New National guy has made some good steps regarding Collins, so we'll see, Baby-steps. Current polling shows ACT to be on the rise and the combination of National/ACT has a greater percentage than Labour/Greens.


    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Still waiting for your point .... just saying ...
    When you omit certain words from what was said, then say you don't see the point....

    Tsk tsk.
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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Read again what I said, There's a word there that you are skipping: "Forces". If you are Forced to work, is it employment?
    Poverty and greed forces me to work. It provides a much better income than a benefit. It's worked (excuse the pun) for me so far ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Well, so far that's not happened....
    On a benefit with a heap of kids (not necessarily all yours) should provide a handy income ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    No one ever said doing what is morally right was easy.
    I think we might agree that your idea of what morals should be held ... and what views should be held as being "Morally right" ... might differ from mine ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    In fact, the very nature of it being difficult to do is why it's considered a Virtue.
    Breaking any law should hardly be considered virtuous. Or difficult to do. If it is difficult for you ... you're doing it wrong ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    The Market would tend to disagree...
    If it was a slave market. Your owner might get $10 ... Dog food is expensive ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Is it okay to stop Muslims from entering your Business, because they might potentially endanger the health of your customers, simply on the basis of their deeply held Faith?
    I would have more faith (excuse the pun) in them than you. Simply because if they had a vaccine pass ... they would be perfectly ENTITLED to be in my business. And I personally know a large number of Muslims in this country and overseas. I'd trust them more than I would you ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I'd say that would fall under Discrimination and would be wrong. It's wrong to do it at an interpersonal level and it is VERY wrong when done at a legislative and Governmental level.
    Where have I discriminated ... ??

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Yeah, Laws =/= Moral. Apartheid was Law, so was Slavery - does this mean that both of these were just and Moral because they were legal?
    Apartheid and slavery are both frowned on in Law (now) in this country. As I recall ... The Maori kept slaves (and ate a few) in past times in THIS country ... and no laws (or their morals apparently) seemed to prevent it at that time. Times have changed I guess ... But I guess some still might need reminding ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Well, so far the New National guy has made some good steps regarding Collins, so we'll see, Baby-steps. Current polling shows ACT to be on the rise and the combination of National/ACT has a greater percentage than Labour/Greens.
    Good steps are ok ... but big steps in big shoes ... that he has to fill first. And are needed FIRST. New Zealand FIRST maybe ...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    When you omit certain words from what was said, then say you don't see the point....

    Tsk tsk.
    Nothing was omitted that I believed was relevant to our discussion ...


    Still waiting for your point ...
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Poverty and greed forces me to work. It provides a much better income than a benefit. It's worked (excuse the pun) for me so far ...
    Right. Self Interest is your reason to work. You work because you want to enjoy a certain level of lifestyle. You don't work because the Government forces you to.


    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    I think we might agree that your idea of what morals should be held ... and what views should be held as being "Morally right" ... might differ from mine ...
    Maybe, maybe not - Most of mine stem from the Locke view of Natural (or God Given Rights). There's a certain amount of extrapolation required for some (such as Copyright Law) but as a general rule, anything that traces it's lineage to those principles I believe to be good and Moral.

    I'd be interested to know what umbrage you take with that...

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Breaking any law should hardly be considered virtuous. Or difficult to do. If it is difficult for you ... you're doing it wrong ...
    Do we not revere Ghandi? Or what about Schindler? Mandela? Rosa Parks? When the law that is being broken is unjust, then civil disobedience IS Virtuous. The key part being Civil.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    If it was a slave market. Your owner might get $10 ... Dog food is expensive ...
    Well, the Free Market is what pays my salary, and it's a bit more than $10. So either I'm extremely good at convincing people (and given the amount of discussion where I take the opposing view here, I think we can dispense with that theory ) or I've got some rather valuable skills.


    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    I would have more faith (excuse the pun) in them than you.
    That's dodging the question, because just like COVID someone could point to an objective threat posed by them because of their Beliefs and they could do so using the exact same reasoning used to justify the Vaccine Pass.

    No doubt you agree that such a discrimination is wrong - but if you accept the framing of the argument for the Vaccine pass, you cannot do so on the same logical grounds.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Simply because if they had a vaccine pass ... they would be perfectly ENTITLED to be in my business.
    That's circular logic, considering the question being posed

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    And I personally know a large number of Muslims in this country and overseas. I'd trust them more than I would you ...
    I'm sure you do and I'm sure they are all lovely.

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Where have I discriminated ... ??
    Would you deny someone access to your business based on their personal belief?

    This is what it comes down to: If the answer is No, then you have to extend that to people who are both Anti-Vaxx or people who simply believe that Vaccine Passports are wrong.

    If the answer is Yes, then you couldn't complain when someone using that same logic turns around and says 'Get out of my shop, we don't serve your kind in here'

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Apartheid and slavery are both frowned on in Law (now) in this country. As I recall ... The Maori kept slaves (and ate a few) in past times in THIS country ... and no laws (or their morals apparently) seemed to prevent it at that time. Times have changed I guess ... But I guess some still might need reminding ...
    Sure, Slavery was a human universal, until the British stopped it. They stopped it based on the same principles that I oppose Vaccine Passports. The fact that we've legalized discrimination in this country shows that times haven't changed all that much...

    One claimed existential threat, one socialist dictator and people suddenly forget all about others Rights and Freedoms and think the Crocadile won't eat them...

    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Good steps are ok ... but big steps in big shoes ... that he has to fill first. And are needed FIRST. New Zealand FIRST maybe ...
    They are dead. The siding with Jacinda killed them and the fact they betrayed their Voterbase on a number of key issues has guaranteed they will never be resurrected.



    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    Nothing was omitted that I believed was relevant to our discussion ...

    Still waiting for your point ...
    Okay then -
    Do you disagree with the principle of Bodily Autonomy?
    Do you think that someone other than you has the right to demand you do something with your body that you don't want to do?
    Do you think that it is right to treat people differently based on a perceived threat that their personal views might entail?

    I believe bodily autonomy to be one of the highest principles, I don't think that anyone should be able to make anyone else put something in their body that they have not consented to and I think any discrimination - no matter how well intentioned or what justification is given, is wrong.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Read again what I said, There's a word there that you are skipping: "Forces". If you are Forced to work, is it employment?
    The wife says yes.

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