Beehive occupation.

[R650R]

My personal biggest gripe with him is predatory church donations (and possible Profiteering) followed closely by a hard-line version of Christianity - namely he seems to have forgotten the second part of "Hate the sin, Love the Sinner".

However, as the saying goes, even broken clocks are right twice a day.

It would be interesting to see a proper accountants audit of Destiny and Brian vs a similar sized Catholic Church chain. If it wasn’t for modern day social media we would have no idea of what goes on there, it would just be yet another church of which there are many.
It’s quite funny how people get upset about the money side of Destiny yet don’t even blink at the big “ charities” like Red Cross et al who are publicly KNOWN in mainstream press to blow half of their donation revenue on corporate style operating costs/salaries and advertising.
I wonder what it would look like if the other churches were all over twitter or Facebook taking govt policies to task?

[R650R]

A woman was saying on Twitter that a young friend of hers had commented that Tamati looks like an aging porn star. I'd love that to catch on.

Oh dear what on earth was she typing into google 😂😂😂😂😂

[pete376403]

Disasters (financial or otherwise) do not tend to scale linearly with size.

If a Government entity gets it wrong, it can be to the tune of hundreds of millions or even Billions (case in point - The effects of Government policy of the last 2 years)

However, back to your point - what happened to the Kaipara councilors that approved this? Were they voted out of office? I hope so. If not, however, then the people of Kaipara are happy with their money to be pissed away irresponsibly - so they would deserve everything they got..

As usual in cases like this, the person responsible resigns and,due to conditions in their employment agreement, walk away. The resident and people who are left holding the bag are most pissed off, and can do nothing "The saga over the wastewater system blowout at Mangawhai may finally be over with the Employment Court ruling Kaipara District Council can't recover millions from its former chief executive over alleged mismanagement." https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/928...stewater-stink

[TheDemonLord]

It would be interesting to see a proper accountants audit of Destiny and Brian vs a similar sized Catholic Church chain. If it wasn’t for modern day social media we would have no idea of what goes on there, it would just be yet another church of which there are many.

Due to my Parents having a Christian Background - I'm quite familiar with the concept of Church Finances. You have places like City Impact church (for example) which is on the North Shore of Auckland - a very wealthy subset of the community and consequently they have a nice church, nice facilities etc.

Then you've got the various Mormon churches, were (IIRC) they Tithe (10% of their income) - and so consequently, they have nice, immaculate facilities.

You've got the run-of-the-mill churches in middle/working class areas - you know the sort - big, cold hall, Church smell - a couple of 'recent upgrades', always some form of renovation/building work going on (especially if the Church is a bit older)

Then you've got Destiny church, which despite being in a 'poor' area, has some really flash equipment. There's a sort of predatory piety, where unscrupulous preachers will tell with great fire and fervor the Story of the Widow's Mite and were community pressure to 'donate' is high. Which leads to the Church, itself, being enriched - as opposed to the people and the community around them.

IMO Brian and Destiny fall into that group.

It’s quite funny how people get upset about the money side of Destiny yet don’t even blink at the big “ charities” like Red Cross et al who are publicly KNOWN in mainstream press to blow half of their donation revenue on corporate style operating costs/salaries and advertising.

Something that increasingly, I find more and more wrong. I hear the argument that if you want to quality people to work for you, you have to pay them - but in the same breath - there's something deeply wrong here.

Add to that, I have a bunch of friends who have done Charity work (as in, paid employment for Charities) - Suffice to say there are some people who work in Charities who genuinely want to help and there are some who see it as a means to get easy money for no real work by preying on peoples' sympathies.

I'm not saying all Charities or all staff - only that it happens.

That's why these days - if I'm going to give to Charity, I no longer donate Cash. I'll donate Time and Items - as they typically will directly help the people who need the help.

I wonder what it would look like if the other churches were all over twitter or Facebook taking govt policies to task?

Sadly, many of them seem to have either forgotten to read the Bible. I saw this being discussed on a Libertarian/Conservative Podcast - where they were talking about various Modern churches in the US supporting things like Abortion, Transgender re-assignment (The notion of 'born in the wrong body' goes directly against 'Made in the Image of God') and other things - and it was interesting to see that in the comments - people like myself (Atheist) were equally critical of Churches who don't uphold what is in the Bible.

After the Gay Marriage issue in NZ (which IMO was the last great Theological pushback against Government Policy) the Churches have fizzled out, with the exception of Brian and Co.

[TheDemonLord]

As usual in cases like this, the person responsible resigns and,due to conditions in their employment agreement, walk away. The resident and people who are left holding the bag are most pissed off, and can do nothing "The saga over the wastewater system blowout at Mangawhai may finally be over with the Employment Court ruling Kaipara District Council can't recover millions from its former chief executive over alleged mismanagement." https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/928...stewater-stink

Something I'm not too happy with, TBH, as although I respect the Captain going down with their Ship - the state of the UK Civil Service (as an example) shows that the Rot goes far deeper than just the CEO.

And if you take a moment to think about it - if all the Staff are the same - all the frontline workers, Middle Management, Upper Management are all the same - are we really to believe that overnight they will do a complete 180?

The renaming of CYFS to Oranga Tamariki is another such example - the idea that a name change will change some of the fundamental issues with the organization is silly.

As a quick note - I think they do an extremely difficult job, in difficult circumstances, with limited resources and with zero public gratitude.

Everyone complains when they uplift a child from a Meth-Addict Parent because they fear for the childs life.
Everyone complains when they don't uplift a child from a Meth-Addict Parent and the child ends up dead.

So when I say Fundamental Issues - I'm not having a crack at them per se.

[pete376403]

Due to my Parents having a Christian Background - I'm quite familiar with the concept of Church Finances. You have places like City Impact church (for example) which is on the North Shore of Auckland - a very wealthy subset of the community and consequently they have a nice church, nice facilities etc.

Then you've got the various Mormon churches, were (IIRC) they Tithe (10% of their income) - and so consequently, they have nice, immaculate facilities.

You've got the run-of-the-mill churches in middle/working class areas - you know the sort - big, cold hall, Church smell - a couple of 'recent upgrades', always some form of renovation/building work going on (especially if the Church is a bit older)

Then you've got Destiny church, which despite being in a 'poor' area, has some really flash equipment. There's a sort of predatory piety, where unscrupulous preachers will tell with great fire and fervor the Story of the Widow's Mite and were community pressure to 'donate' is high. Which leads to the Church, itself, being enriched - as opposed to the people and the community around them.

IMO Brian and Destiny fall into that group.

Something that increasingly, I find more and more wrong. I hear the argument that if you want to quality people to work for you, you have to pay them - but in the same breath - there's something deeply wrong here.
Add to that, I have a bunch of friends who have done Charity work (as in, paid employment for Charities) - Suffice to say there are some people who work in Charities who genuinely want to help and there are some who see it as a means to get easy money for no real work by preying on peoples' sympathies.
I'm not saying all Charities or all staff - only that it happens.
That's why these days - if I'm going to give to Charity, I no longer donate Cash. I'll donate Time and Items - as they typically will directly help the people who need the help.
Sadly, many of them seem to have either forgotten to read the Bible. I saw this being discussed on a Libertarian/Conservative Podcast - where they were talking about various Modern churches in the US supporting things like Abortion, Transgender re-assignment (The notion of 'born in the wrong body' goes directly against 'Made in the Image of God') and other things - and it was interesting to see that in the comments - people like myself (Atheist) were equally critical of Churches who don't uphold what is in the Bible.
After the Gay Marriage issue in NZ (which IMO was the last great Theological pushback against Government Policy) the Churches have fizzled out, with the exception of Brian and Co.

The only religious organisation that I think has any credence, and to which I will give anything to, is the Salvation Army. The rest are just a pack of money hungry, empire building leeches, which should be audited and taxed, just as any other profit driven enterprise should be.

[James Deuce]

The only religious organisation that I think has any credence, and to which I will give anything to, is the Salvation Army. The rest are just a pack of money hungry, empire building leeches, which should be audited and taxed, just as any other profit driven enterprise should be.

Homophobic, quietly racist paramilitary cult with decent investments and tax breaks on their commercial and residential properties. I think not.

[F5 Dave]

And they dont even like drinking. But yes agree with Jim.

[TheDemonLord]

The only religious organisation that I think has any credence, and to which I will give anything to, is the Salvation Army. The rest are just a pack of money hungry, empire building leeches, which should be audited and taxed, just as any other profit driven enterprise should be.

The Sallies have their issues, just like all churches.

As I said - I've seen a very wide spectrum of both Churches and Church Goers. There are some who genuinely do good works for the community, there are some which definitely fall under your description.

Personally - I'd say that most churches aren't profit driven - they are usually run on shoe-string budgets and rely not on Money donations but Time, Materials etc.

Homophobic, quietly racist paramilitary cult with decent investments and tax breaks on their commercial and residential properties. I think not.

Homophobic? I mean - they are Christians, they believe it's a Sin - I don't agree with them - but it's a bit of a stretch.

Quietly Racist? Not that I've personally witnessed - seen plenty of Maori Sallies.

However, Paramilitary? Please. When was the last time you saw the Sallies in Tactical gear practicing CQB? Yes, they have the Dress, Structure and even practice things like Drill - but what they don't practice is the actual combat skills.

And as above - they do some good work.

[James Deuce]

The Sallies have their issues, just like all churches.

As I said - I've seen a very wide spectrum of both Churches and Church Goers. There are some who genuinely do good works for the community, there are some which definitely fall under your description.

Personally - I'd say that most churches aren't profit driven - they are usually run on shoe-string budgets and rely not on Money donations but Time, Materials etc.



Homophobic? I mean - they are Christians, they believe it's a Sin - I don't agree with them - but it's a bit of a stretch.

Quietly Racist? Not that I've personally witnessed - seen plenty of Maori Sallies.

However, Paramilitary? Please. When was the last time you saw the Sallies in Tactical gear practicing CQB? Yes, they have the Dress, Structure and even practice things like Drill - but what they don't practice is the actual combat skills.

And as above - they do some good work.

Absolutely homophobic. Have been busted for refusing entry to treatment facilities for Wellington's transsexual and gay sex workers wanting treatment for drug and alcohol addiction. I used to go to Congress Hall in Auckland and the Glenfield one occasionally. Absolutely paramilitary. They use a rank system and it is enforced. Racist. For sure. Maybe they've moved away from it now, but there were no people of colour in a 1500 strong church parish. None. They, like most religious organisations, provide conditional support. I dare you to go an ask for help from them when you're in the shit. You'll be wearing a uniform and playing a cornet before you know it.

[TheDemonLord]

Absolutely homophobic. Have been busted for refusing entry to treatment facilities for Wellington's transsexual and gay sex workers wanting treatment for drug and alcohol addiction.

Again - they believe in the Bible - the Bible says all 3 of those things are wrong. Do they have religious freedom to believe that?

And are they refusing entry into public owned facilities by blockading them or are they refusing entry into their own facilities?

Absolutely paramilitary. They use a rank system and it is enforced.

To which I agreed - they have Rank, Uniform, Drill and a Marching Band.

However what they don't have is Weapons, Weapons training, Hand-to-hand Combat classes, CQB courses, Rifle Ranges etc. etc. That's kinda required to meet the definition of Paramilitary.

At best you could say they were LARPing at being a military organization, but even LARPers bring their own fake weapons....

Racist. For sure. Maybe they've moved away from it now, but there were no people of colour in a 1500 strong church parish. None.

Okay - firstly - this is classic CRT in action Folks. Right down to the Coloured Peoples - oops, I mean 'People of Colour' terminology. Sorry - I often get these racist terms mixed up.

Secondly though - and this is the big one: Did you ever witness any Racist remarks or actual acts of Racism by the Sallies or are you merely trying to imply Racism based on an ideal of what the make-up of a given institution ought to look like based on marxist presuppositions?

They, like most religious organisations, provide conditional support. I dare you to go an ask for help from them when you're in the shit. You'll be wearing a uniform and playing a cornet before you know it.

So first up - they are the ones providing the support. They are absolutely entitled to have conditions attached.

But further to that, you have to ask why they put the conditions on, they sincerely believe that in order to fully help the person, you have to treat not only the symptom but the underlying root-cause (and it just so happens to an Evangelical Christian that the root cause of most problems is insufficient Faith in God....)

I might disagree with their assessments in some cases, but in other cases - perhaps it's easier to put it this way:

A Homeless person hanging outside an Alcohol shop, smelling of intoxication asks you for $5 for a Sandwich. Do you give them $5?

They might genuinely buy a Sandwich - in which case you've helped them. They might also buy more alcohol, in which case you have prolonged their suffering.

The Sallies, rightly or wrongly, believe that if you don't address the underlying issues - all you are doing is perpetuating the issue, you aren't helping that person - you are ensuring that they are trapped ever deeper in the spiral of despair.

Furthermore, by giving your time/money/resources to that person and not someone who is trying to change - you are making the world a worse place.

It's harsh - but as above - it's their Charity and they are free to dispense it how they see fit.

[pritch]

I wonder what it would look like if the other churches were all over twitter or Facebook taking govt policies to task?

That might be sufficient to cause a law change. The churches are tax free because of their 'good works'. The US mega churches are more noted for buying executive jets for their pastors than for their charitable work.

There is frequent comment in the US that if churches become involved in politics they should be taxed. Only their good works should be deductible.

That could work here too.

[pzkpfw]

The S.A. can believe what they like, but under the guise of "family values" or whatever, they have actively campaigned against two major reforms giving existing rights to a marginalised community.

Screw 'em. (The sallies)

[F5 Dave]

If you don't follow the Christian Dog you are going to Hell.

Most of the world doesn't, but don't worry, they are largely coloured skin peoples in far countries, not like us good white Christian Soldiers from British stock. .

That attitude is quietly racist and what you will find at church.

[pete376403]

Homophobic, quietly racist paramilitary cult with decent investments and tax breaks on their commercial and residential properties. I think not.

all that but they do a bit of good work with deros and drunks. Every chance I may end up needing something beside thoughts and prayers from them one day