Beehive occupation.

[pzkpfw]

Would you accept MY rules and restrictions for YOUR health and Life?

Answer me that first, then ask would you accept if MY rules/restrictions were forced upon you?

Population votes.

Government gets in.

Government makes rules/restrictions according to their idea of best for all.

Next election, maybe some other crowd gets in and changes the rules/restrictions.

... that's quite different to some random person, or a dictator, making those rules/restrictions.


Makes me laugh when this noisy minority holds up signs complaining about loss of democracy.

[TheDemonLord]

Population votes.

Government gets in.

Government makes rules/restrictions according to their idea of best for all.

Next election, maybe some other crowd gets in and changes the rules/restrictions.

... that's quite different to some random person, or a dictator, making those rules/restrictions.

Makes me laugh when this noisy minority holds up signs complaining about loss of democracy.

So, If the Population Votes and if the Government is elected and the Government makes the rules, then it's A-Okay?

I'm getting some very hazy memories of a Government that was elected, by popular Vote, then started taking away rights from a Minority group. Pretty sure it ended badly and everyone thinks that what they did was horrendously wrong...

The obvious answer the question is that no one here would accept my Rules/Restrictions on Health voluntarily, let alone under a fiat of Force, even if I was elected.

The reason being is that your life, your body and your health are your business, no one elses. Not Mine, Not Stalinda, Not the Government, Not the Bloke next door, Yours and Yours alone.

[pete376403]

Would you accept MY rules and restrictions for YOUR health and Life?

Answer me that first, then ask would you accept if MY rules/restrictions were forced upon you?

If you were the democratically elected head of government and the country was facing a worldwide health crisis that so far has killed millions in other countries AND the tactics the government has followed so far keeping this countries death toll to a a tiny fraction of what has happened overseas, then probably yes. And I might even wonder why you (as the head of government) are taking what appears to be such a light handed approach to those who would oppose said government tactics.

[pritch]

But they are restricting freedoms for not proving vaccinated status and they are issuing fines for non-compliance.

That's a fiat of Force and therefore is a form of Mandate.

As always it's about choices and consequences. Nothing different there.

[TheDemonLord]

As always it's about choices and consequences. Nothing different there.

'Well if you choose not to have sex with me, the consequence is you'll get your money confiscated and not be allowed to leave the house'

'If you choose not to hand over your phone and jewellery, there will be consequences'

Pritch, on matters of Consent and Coercion, 2022.

[TheDemonLord]

If you were the democratically elected head of government and the country was facing a worldwide health crisis that so far has killed millions in other countries AND the tactics the government has followed so far keeping this countries death toll to a a tiny fraction of what has happened overseas, then probably yes.

The word 'if' and the word 'probably' are doing an Awful lot of Heavy lifting in that sentence.

Now, the Tactics that this Government has followed - Read the John Hopkins study about the effectiveness of Lockdowns?

0.2% of deaths saved.

I have been consistent on this point that it wasn't Government Policy that 'saved' NZ, but our relative geographic Isolation, our limited number of entry points to the country, our very low population density.

With time more info has come out, it may be the case that NZ's higher UV radiation (thanks to the Ozone hole) may have also been a causal factor (reducing the time the virus is transmissible in the air)

And I might even wonder why you (as the head of government) are taking what appears to be such a light handed approach to those who would oppose said government tactics.

If I was the head of Government, I'd want the most spirited and empassioned debate, on any subject. I would not ask anyone to be silenced, I would allow all speech to happen so long as there was not a direct incitement to violence.

Just like on this Forum - I don't block people, I don't report people, I don't ignore people - I live for the Debate.

Speaking of which:

Honk Honk.

[pritch]

The demonstrators have pink eye at one end, foot rot at the other end, and the shits in the middle. And we're supposed to give serious consideration to their views on public health.

This morning I note that some chancers seeking to gain from this mess are referring to the demonstratore as "working class" and those opposing them as the "elites".
My initial reaction was that most would be unemployed, but it has been pointed out that some of the cars are too new to be owned by the impecunious.

As the local pub owner commented last night, the Council have been missing in action. True. That may be enough to jerk them into action.

There was a report from Canada that a business owner saw one of his vehicles in a TV news report on the protest there. He has hired a vehicle recovery firm to get his vehicle, and has terminated the employee who will find out in due course. Actions have consequences.

[pzkpfw]

So, If the Population Votes and if the Government is elected and the Government makes the rules, then it's A-Okay?

I'm getting some very hazy memories of a Government that was elected, by popular Vote, then started taking away rights from a Minority group. Pretty sure it ended badly and everyone thinks that what they did was horrendously wrong...

The obvious answer the question is that no one here would accept my Rules/Restrictions on Health voluntarily, let alone under a fiat of Force, even if I was elected.

The reason being is that your life, your body and your health are your business, no one elses. Not Mine, Not Stalinda, Not the Government, Not the Bloke next door, Yours and Yours alone.

Nice Godwin there.

Always the CT way to go right for the extreme, ignoring that real life is never so black and white.

The more Covid-sick people who walk around in public, the more they spread it to other people. The more Covid-sick people who end up in hospital, the more people who have other issues can't get the help they need. It's simply not as simple as saying your body and your health are only your business. This is a public health emergency, not something you can pretend is an individual issue.




( https://youtu.be/2P8qChwZZk8 )

[TheDemonLord]

Nice Godwin there.

Always the CT way to go right for the extreme, ignoring that real life is never so black and white.

You're the one saying that Democracy is the arbiter of Right or Wrong. I'm the one appealing to a higher value. In my world view, I can condemn immoral actions done to any minority with the approval of the Majority via a democratic vote, you cannot.

The more Covid-sick people who walk around in public, the more they spread it to other people. The more Covid-sick people who end up in hospital, the more people who have other issues can't get the help they need.

Sure - and perhaps if we saw that bodies were piling up in the street, I might have some sympathy for that argument. But it isn't, not even close and so any pragmatic argument that you might put forward is null and void.

If it was something like Small Pox, with a 30% mortality rate for Adults and 50% mortality rate for Children, I might (and I do stress might) concede that some form of Mandate and Government control is justified.

But it isn't even close. And Omircron (the one that put us into level red) is even less close than the worst variant of Covid (70 times less lethal than Delta).

It's simply not as simple as saying your body and your health are only your business.

It absolutely is. And here's why:

because if you are worried about YOUR body and YOUR health, you have the freedom to take steps to protect yourself

Think riding a Bike is too risky? Drive a car.
Think that riding in sandals is dangerous? Wear Boots.
Concerned about the group of 'youths' milling around the dimly lit alleyway? Take a different route.
Worried about catching a virulent airborne disease? Buy an N95 Mask and wear it properly fitted.

We all have the ability to make choices and determine our level of Risk. Some are happy with higher levels of Risk than others.

This is a public health emergency, not something you can pretend is an individual issue.

According to whom? The same people that are enforcing the Mandates? Not a conflict of interest there....

But further to that, not an Individual issue? Do you think it's a Collective issue then?

When it's for the 'greater good', any tyranny of 'the individual' becomes acceptable - as we have seen time and time again (and not just in a certain time period in Germany). Everything is an individual issue because as a society we are made up of Individuals. Any affront to one is an affront to all.

( https://youtu.be/2P8qChwZZk8 )

I got to 7 minutes of the video and so far all she has said is 'Wah they didn't include other studies' - Okay then, why should they have included those studies?

I mean, I get Meta-analysis studies should be treated with caution - and maybe she has a point - but she is simply saying 'they didn't include this study so it's worthless'. Sorry Love, but I'll need a bit more than that. Maybe a counter analysis?

[FJRider]

You're the one saying that Democracy is the arbiter of Right or Wrong.

Right or wrongly ... the Majority usually have THEIR way ...

The minority have ways to appeal it ... even change it.

I'm the one appealing to a higher value.

Like your god and your natural rights ... ??

In my world view, I can condemn immoral actions done to any minority with the approval of the Majority via a democratic vote, you cannot.

As I'm aware ... your ability to have "Democratic Vote" extends ONLY to New Zealand.

You can condemn anything you like on worldly affairs .... but your vote amounts to only ONE vote.

[neels]

Meh, tidy up a bit and then leave them to it.

Give them a timeframe to remove any illegally parked vehicles, after that remove them by tow truck/bulldozer/explosive at their own risk, just like any other illegally parked vehicle.

Once public access is restored to public areas, leave them to sit in their own filth for as long as they see fit, and otherwise ignore them.

Even if there are a few thousand of them there it's still a fraction of a percent of the total population. That makes them about as representative as the legalise cannabis party in terms of influence on government policy, or perhaps a better analogy would be the Alliance before their demise given that they seem to be a collection of splinter groups with no coherent message.

[TheDemonLord]

Right or wrongly ... the Majority usually have THEIR way ...

The minority have ways to appeal it ... even change it.

Indeed, and that's usually by appealing to:

your natural rights ... ??

You're starting to catch on

As I'm aware ... your ability to have "Democratic Vote" extends ONLY to New Zealand.

You can condemn anything you like on worldly affairs .... but your vote amounts to only ONE vote.

However, when I condemn other affairs, I do so from a position that is consistent.

The protection of the individuals Natural Rights. Whether that's Apartheid, Stalinda, Uyghurs or other - my condemnation is not beholding to a popular vote.

[TheDemonLord]

Meh, tidy up a bit and then leave them to it.

Give them a timeframe to remove any illegally parked vehicles, after that remove them by tow truck/bulldozer/explosive at their own risk, just like any other illegally parked vehicle.

Once public access is restored to public areas, leave them to sit in their own filth for as long as they see fit, and otherwise ignore them.

Even if there are a few thousand of them there it's still a fraction of a percent of the total population. That makes them about as representative as the legalise cannabis party in terms of influence on government policy, or perhaps a better analogy would be the Alliance before their demise given that they seem to be a collection of splinter groups with no coherent message.

I agree on the first part, quite reasonable actually.

The illegally parked vehicles - unfortunately all the Left-wing protests have convinced me a little bit of Civil disobedience is fine.

As for the last part - they may be a fraction of the population in number, but the NZ Scanning app numbers don't lie - almost a drop of 50% usage. People are over it. Omicron is the sniffles and the justification for continued tyranny is gone.

[mashman]

The minority have ways to appeal it ... even change it.

No, they don't. Hence why they're protesting. The courts are refusing to hear the evidence of that appeal on the basis that the majority took the jab. As such, the protestors are very much making their duty of care to everyone in the country known. I know you don't like to think that the protestors are human beings, but they are. I know a few of 'em. Some good earners in there too. Some good earners who can't be there that are vaccinated that would also like to be there too, but hey, life. I'd suggest that if ya'll stopped being a cunt for long enough that the government would have to do the same. Let the science be heard, coz only then do you have a chance at hitting a mandate.

Oh yeah... it's science. Should be able to dismiss it in its own right without bias... wtf ya'll afraid of?

[neels]

As for the last part - they may be a fraction of the population in number, but the NZ Scanning app numbers don't lie - almost a drop of 50% usage. People are over it. Omicron is the sniffles and the justification for continued tyranny is gone.

The feeling seems to be that the reduction in scanning is because people are trying to avoid the restrictions associated with being identified as a contact, which presumably is what you are referring to as tyranny.

To be fair I get that, not wanting to be deemed a close contact just because you were at the opposite end of an aeroplane from someone who later tests positive, or if you're popping into the dairy for 5 minutes when you need to be exposed for 15 minutes without a mask to be considered a contact why bother.

Omicron is just the sniffles for some people, but not all of the people, otherwise there wouldn't be people in hospital. Whether that justifies the level of restrictions is a multi headed monster that can be debated forever without reaching an absolute conclusion.