Sugilites CRT Report - like, what is it?

[sugilite:Me]

Critical Race Theory – or CRT as I will refer to it from now on, was ultimately born of a study generally known as “Critical Theory” in the 1930's from the Frankfurt school – An institute that was very closely associated with Marxism. That in turn sprouted Critical Legal Theory/Legal studies, that then went on to spawn CRT, some 40 years ago by 2 black well respected legal scholars Derrick Bell and Kimberlé Crenshaw, and an American born man of Mexican bloodlines Richard Delgado. A now distinguished and respected law professor.

CRT is basically a framework created to look at the impact of racism that permeates the US systems and laws put in place to govern social institutions such as justice, housing, education, healthcare and so on.

To my mind, if course the academics from a traditionally oppressed people would naturally have an interest in creating an understanding and framework for these racist policies to be addressed and the scales of balance be corrected to govern all races in a fair and balanced way.
Like most countries, laws can be quite archaic and very dated, and the US is no different. A lot of these laws and regulations would have been formed well into the last century during the days of segregation, and likely many laws creation even predating even that. So yeah, to my mind - fair enough to look into these issues.

So for many, many years CRT flew under the radar, not garnering any real alarm or scaremongering within society in general. Well that is until The New York times published something called “The 1619” project in 2019. This started to bring elements of CRT into the public conciseness, and the right seized upon it to mold into a mass disinformation weapon with the specific aim (IMO) to garner and foster outrage in their voter base, and pick up a few more voters while they are at it.
I'm not for a moment saying that only the right creates boogie monsters to scare the faithful, the left are very proficient at it as well.

The political right seeks to paint CRT as being set up to place blame on all white people for being oppressors while classifying all black people as hopelessly oppressed victims. They seek to make CRT as some sort of personal attack on all whites, rather than what CRT's true purpose is - that of seeking racism within government created laws governing the many social services.

I also found a common misdirection projected by the right is their passion for quoting Martin Luther Kings line “That individuals should be viewed by the content of their character instead of the color of their skin “ all the while ignoring the context of the quote and true meaning of it.

Much is made by the right of the fact that CRT has ahem, “deep Marxist roots”. To my way of thinking – why would that be so surprising? Why would the oppressed be expected to follow their oppressors political system? It sure had not worked for them up to that point. My view is, so what. Just because the roots of CRT were born of Marxists, this fact does not disqualify or dilute the point of CRT in any way. It is something that should be looked at and addressed. As mentioned in other posts, I do not give a crap where a good idea comes from, but rather that any good idea should be judged on it's merits.

Now the radical leftists have if course - as ever played right into the right leaning agitators hands by coming up with equally distorted versions of what CRT is and how it should be taught in schools. Some teachers have been especially moronic and taught white children that racism is all their fault and they are personally accountable of all their ancestors dastardly deeds. This if course is entirely reprehensible, and the sugilite solution is to sack them, or at the very least suspend them pending further “education” metered out by people who actually know what CRT is and only under supervision and careful monitoring, let them teach once more – though I do prefer the sacking option.

Now I'm going to mention some anecdotal experiences gleaned from my time living in an smallish rural Arkansas town/city for near 2 years during 2018/2019.
I have personally witnessed a racist mindsets such as going into Walmart regularly and seeing queues of white people waiting for a white checkout operator to serve them, while black checkout operators are standing there available. I'm sure if I had interviewed the white people in the queues, they would not of considered themselves to be racially predigest.
On another angle, I've seen a huge mural in the local post office I visited daily depicting slaves working in cotton fields. I once asked a black worker at the post office what they thought of that and she just rolled her eyes and said it did not even enter the local white peoples minds that it might be offensive, a sentiment I agreed with. I saw many, many other such examples of racial tone deafness in this community. My point is, I feel many of these people would of thought and felt differently – been more aware, had a little education been metered out to them throughout their formative years - naturally in a balanced way that most could understand and appreciate.

I feel it is important that some aspects of CRT could be incorporated into an educational framework that acknowledges the injustices that were historically placed upon black people, and how that, yes laws do have aspects of racism still baked into them to this day. That though they the students do not bear responsibility as such, rather that society in general does owe it to itself to update these laws to bring more balance into them to better govern all people - irrespective of skin color and race. While it is hardly a getting white students to do the “walk a mile in anthers shoes” gig, it at least can show them that paths different from their own exists. And other groups of people had in effect been forced to walk that alternative path based on outdated laws and ordinances.

This educational framework must be closely monitored to avoid misrepresentation by both the left and right injecting their political agendas which if course would just inject a whole new bunch of injustices for people to deal with. And I mean this monitoring would need to be put in place right from the top educational administrators and law makers right down to the classroom level.

Surely the USA with its much self touted proud tradition of freedom and liberty could surely come up with a solution to this issue?

Well certainly in order to do so it will need to get over this class war of hatred being fueled by the opposing political divides and associated media companies - all in the name of garnering power for the pollies and the almighty advertising dollars for the media companies. So there is that to overcome along the way.

[TheDemonLord]

Not a bad analysis.

I'll post a more in depth response later - the only part that I think has been missed is the role of Antonio Gramsci and the role his work on Cultural Hegemony played in all this.

Specifically: What the stated goal of Gramsci's work is/was and why it's citation in the body of work that makes up the foundational texts of CRT is important.

[R650R]

Critical Race Theory – or CRT as I will refer to it from now on, was ultimately born of a study generally known as “Critical Theory” in the 1930's from the Frankfurt school – An institute that was very closely associated with Marxism. That in turn sprouted Critical Legal Theory/Legal studies, that then went on to spawn CRT, some 40 years ago by 2 black well respected legal scholars Derrick Bell and Kimberlé Crenshaw, and an American born man of Mexican bloodlines Richard Delgado. A now distinguished and respected law professor.

CRT is basically a framework created to look at the impact of racism that permeates the US systems and laws put in place to govern social institutions such as justice, housing, education, healthcare and so on.



So for many, many years CRT flew under the radar, not garnering any real alarm or scaremongering within society in general. Well that is until The New York times published something called “The 1619” project in 2019. This started to bring elements of CRT into the public conciseness, and the right seized upon it to mold into a mass disinformation weapon with the specific aim (IMO) to garner and foster outrage in their voter base, and pick up a few more voters while they are at it.
I'm not for a moment saying that only the right creates boogie monsters to scare the faithful, the left are very proficient at it as well.

The political right seeks to paint CRT as being set up to place blame on all white people for being oppressors while classifying all black people as hopelessly oppressed victims. They seek to make CRT as some sort of personal attack on all whites, rather than what CRT's true purpose is - that of seeking racism within government created laws governing the many social services.

I also found a common misdirection projected by the right is their passion for quoting Martin Luther Kings line “That individuals should be viewed by the content of their character instead of the color of their skin “ all the while ignoring the context of the quote and true meaning of it.

Much is made by the right of the fact that CRT has ahem, “deep Marxist roots”. To my way of thinking – why would that be so surprising? Why would the oppressed be expected to follow their oppressors political system? It sure had not worked for them up to that point. My view is, so what. Just because the roots of CRT were born of Marxists, this fact does not disqualify or dilute the point of CRT in any way. It is something that should be looked at and addressed. As mentioned in other posts, I do not give a crap where a good idea comes from, but rather that any good idea should be judged on it's merits.

Surely the USA with its much self touted proud tradition of freedom and liberty could surely come up with a solution to this issue?

Well certainly in order to do so it will need to get over this class war of hatred being fueled by the opposing political divides and associated media companies - all in the name of garnering power for the pollies and the almighty advertising dollars for the media companies. So there is that to overcome along the way.

So we are expected that our kids be taught about something that was relevant in 1930 when real racism existed in todayÂ’s world where we now have covert reverse racism disguised as equality?

If Martin LutherÂ’s quote is taken out of context are you saying he only intended it to be for black people?

Please show real examples “ racism within government created laws governing the many social services.” that exist in current legislation in NZ or USA. Show me a law that clearly is racist.

If CRT is not an anti white people woke political tool please show examples of it being studied in other countries where whites are not a majority. Are Dubai, China, Nicuragua studying the effects of their law school against any minority white populations living there?

Just for some balanced inclusion and equality here’s a Black Scholar talking about how a couple other ethnic/racial groups were somewhat temporarily “oppressed” but successfully integrated with the new scheme of things and lifted themselves up substantially in long term instead of blaming problems on someone else.

[sugilite:Me]

So we are expected that our kids be taught about something that was relevant in 1930 when real racism existed in todayÂ’s world where we now have covert reverse racism disguised as equality?

I did not realize you lived in the USA? And the fact you think real racism ended in 1930 is well, very ignorant. "The Civil Rights Act of 1964 superseded all state and local laws requiring segregation. Compliance with the new law came slowly, and it took years with many cases in lower courts to enforce it." So segregation was only ended at the federal level in 64.

If Martin LutherÂ’s quote is taken out of context are you saying he only intended it to be for black people?

No I'm not, listen to the whole speech and then get back to me.

Please show real examples “ racism within government created laws governing the many social services.” that exist in current legislation in NZ or USA. Show me a law that clearly is racist.

You do realize CRT is not part of New Zealand?

If CRT is not an anti white people woke political tool please show examples of it being studied in other countries where whites are not a majority. Are Dubai, China, Nicuragua studying the effects of their law school against any minority white populations living there?

Again, CRT is a US based thing. Was wokeness even a thing when CRT started 40 years ago?

Just for some balanced inclusion and equality here’s a Black Scholar talking about how a couple other ethnic/racial groups were somewhat temporarily “oppressed” but successfully integrated with the new scheme of things and lifted themselves up substantially in long term instead of blaming problems on someone else.

Again, unrelated to CRT.
My report was on CRT.
The thing having me really scratch my head here - is just how offended your post is coming across as.
I could of said a lot more, so you are fortunate I'm low on time.

[R650R]

I did not realize you lived in the USA? And the fact you think real racism ended in 1930 is well, very ignorant. "The Civil Rights Act of 1964 superseded all state and local laws requiring segregation. Compliance with the new law came slowly, and it took years with many cases in lower courts to enforce it." So segregation was only ended at the federal level in 64.



No I'm not, listen to the whole speech and then get back to me.


You do realize CRT is not part of New Zealand?



Again, CRT is a US based thing. Was wokeness even a thing when CRT started 40 years ago?


Again, unrelated to CRT.
My report was on CRT.
The thing having me really scratch my head here - is just how offended your post is coming across as.
I could of said a lot more, so you are fortunate I'm low on time.

Nice straw man argument saying things that I didn’t say, fastest way to lose my respect btw...
I did NOT say racism ended in 1930. I did say that yesterday there’s would have been some real Amount at that time, with the inference that with time what exists today is significantly less and confined can to niche extremists elements ts of society.

I do not live in USA. But what infects their educational institutions and talking point political tv shows eventually infects our societies educational and political establishments.

So please articulate exactly what you interpret Martin Luther as saying?

[sugilite:Me]

Nice straw man argument saying things that I didn’t say, fastest way to lose my respect btw...

Well, I do find it interesting that you are accusing me of creating a straw-man argument when it was you bringing all the unrelated material to CRT.

I did NOT say racism ended in 1930. I did say that yesterday there’s would have been some real Amount at that time, with the inference that with time what exists today is significantly less and confined can to niche extremists elements ts of society.

You have been disingenuous with quoting yourself - what you actually said was "So we are expected that our kids be taught about something that was relevant in 1930 when real racism existed". By that very statement, you are suggesting anything after the 1930's was not real racism. Despite there being segregation for decades after the 30's. You talk about respect, but you do not show respect and take ownership of your own words.

I do not live in USA. But what infects their educational institutions and talking point political tv shows eventually infects our societies educational and political establishments.

OK, you are correct in that NZ and other countries are influenced by America. However, the way you were talking, one would think American CRT was already part of the NZ education - it is not. We have our own race issues to deal with, that is very different from the American flavor. Maybe you could do a report yourself about that? I for one can see imbalances here in NZ that cut in both directions - IMO.

So please articulate exactly what you interpret Martin Luther as saying?

King delivered the speech in 1963 at a the March on Washington for jobs and freedom. It was actually a culmination of several speeches he had been giving that time with a focus in particular on the serious financial injustices black people faced at the time.
Most people focus on that one line "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character...I have a dream today!".
However, checkout this part of of the same speech “In a sense, we’ve come to our nation’s capital to cash a check. When the architects of our Republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir…Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked ‘insufficient funds.’ But we refuse to believe that the bank of justice is bankrupt.”

King wrote books with a focus on financial injustice that blacks faced, and if course spoke of the many social and institutional injustices at the time as well. So my point I was making in my report R650 - is that the right love to quote that one part of the speech, while conveniently neglecting to mention or reference the speech taken in it's entirety (and that is more than just the parts I quoted here) was in fact a speech about the financial injustices they faced that was baked into laws and financial institutions in forms such as redlining (look it up) and many others. And you know what that relates directly to? One of the main focuses of CRT. You know, the part of the speech the right conveniently left out - which I find somewhat ironic.

[R650R]

The USA is so racist they twice elected a black man as president.
The USA is so racist there best golfer (surely a rich white mans sport) ever was Tiger Woods
The USA is so racist the most successful tv host and prob richest is Oprah Winfrey
The USA is so racist they gave Russia back an international arms dealer during wartime in exchange for a Black female basketball player.
The USA is so racist the most popular doctor was Bill Cosby
The USA is so racist they pay money to watch blockbuster movies with WILL SMITH, Samuel Jackson, Morgan Freeman, Denzel Washington

[Berries]

If it wasn’t for KB I would have never heard of CRT.

[F5 Dave]

Neither would have I. I dont trawl am'ercan social media, outside actual model specific motorcycle forums and no one there is talking politics.

It seems a shame that some sados here seem to think they live there.

Thank you Sugi for the insight summary. I'd googled it a while back but this is a better description.


Ohh, but tread with care. There was a warning that you might lose the respect of the least respected person on the site. Which is why he is on ignore. I recommend the same.

[pritch]

So we are expected that our kids be taught about something that was relevant in 1930 when real racism existed in todayÂ’s world where we now have covert reverse racism disguised as equality?

Only if your kids are going to study law at a US university and then only if they want to.

[F5 Dave]

Oh Jesus Arse Krist! Now you are scaring me. Hopefully that Incel has not managed to breed.

[R650R]

In all these fancy studies do any of the academics explain why so many non white people go to great lengths usually in illegal fashion and at great danger to seek refuge in the countries of grest colonial oppression?
Many risk suffocation in shipping containers, drowning in shark infested waters, being shot by border patrol, becoming owned by drug cartels/organised crime to enter such oppressively regimes like; Uk, USA, Australia, New Zealand......
They come from reasonably stable countries like Mexico, China, eastern Europe etc yet they risk it all knowing they will have to live under the radar as illegal immigrant.????
Why want to come to such life of colonial oppression?

On a lighter note a bit of comedy....

[Berries]

Two words.






Fish and chips.

[TheDemonLord]

Merry Christmas Sugi, I was gonna reply earlier, but I've been having a quiet Christmas away from my Keyboard.

So before I post my replies - I note you've not answered my question as to whether in your deep dive into this subject you had come across the works of Antonio Gramsci - I'm going to presume (both from the absence in your opening post and subsequent commentary) that you haven't.

Critical Race Theory – or CRT as I will refer to it from now on, was ultimately born of a study generally known as “Critical Theory” in the 1930's from the Frankfurt school – An institute that was very closely associated with Marxism. That in turn sprouted Critical Legal Theory/Legal studies, that then went on to spawn CRT, some 40 years ago by 2 black well respected legal scholars Derrick Bell and Kimberlé Crenshaw, and an American born man of Mexican bloodlines Richard Delgado. A now distinguished and respected law professor.

CRT is basically a framework created to look at the impact of racism that permeates the US systems and laws put in place to govern social institutions such as justice, housing, education, healthcare and so on.

So, first question - and although you kinda answer it later, I want to press you on this first and foremost - Much has been made of me pointing out that Marxism has infected many aspects of academia and our culture. A claim that often gets ridiculed as either borderline conspiratorial or the modern equivalent of 'Reds under the Beds' or something similar.

Now that you've done a pretty decent descent into and you've correctly identified the lineage back to the Frankfurt school, here goes:

"Is TDL's claim that CRT has 'deep marxist roots' true?"

I'll preemptively say that I'll grant you every bit of nuance and subjective opinion on your answer that you like.

To my mind, if course the academics from a traditionally oppressed people would naturally have an interest in creating an understanding and framework for these racist policies to be addressed and the scales of balance be corrected to govern all races in a fair and balanced way.
Like most countries, laws can be quite archaic and very dated, and the US is no different. A lot of these laws and regulations would have been formed well into the last century during the days of segregation, and likely many laws creation even predating even that. So yeah, to my mind - fair enough to look into these issues.

My first instinct is to look at the letter of the Law and if there is no mention of Race in the legal text and only a mention of behaviors then I would say it's not a Racist law (both by strict definition and by the broader casual meaning of the word).

There are some instances where this may not be true, but then on those instances, suffice to say I don't grant any charity or good intention that you do (which I shall clarify later).

So for many, many years CRT flew under the radar, not garnering any real alarm or scaremongering within society in general. Well that is until The New York times published something called “The 1619” project in 2019. This started to bring elements of CRT into the public conciseness, and the right seized upon it to mold into a mass disinformation weapon with the specific aim (IMO) to garner and foster outrage in their voter base, and pick up a few more voters while they are at it.
I'm not for a moment saying that only the right creates boogie monsters to scare the faithful, the left are very proficient at it as well.

I disagree about your timeline, not specifically at it being named as CRT - but here's a post from yours truly back in 2018.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/s...post1131111252

Specifically where I wrote this line:

Now, there are people on the radical left that have realised this. Which is why they are trying to redefine Racism as "Power + Privilege" so that they can state "You can't be racist to a White person".

I may not have referenced CRT by name, but I am definitively citing the Anti-Racist/Intersectional/CRT re-definition of Racism.

This is part of a long march they (the radical Left wing Marxists) have been doing for a very long time. For me, it started when the Feminist movement tried to infiltrate Video Games (aka 'Gamer Gate') - and whilst there are some distinctions, the more I've read, the more it is simply a repackaging of Gramsci's ideas:

Feminism is Cultural Hegemony for Sex
Critical Race theory is Cultural Hegemony for Race
Gender Theory is Cultural Hegemony for Gender

etc. etc.

The political right seeks to paint CRT as being set up to place blame on all white people for being oppressors while classifying all black people as hopelessly oppressed victims. They seek to make CRT as some sort of personal attack on all whites, rather than what CRT's true purpose is - that of seeking racism within government created laws governing the many social services.

Two points on this:

1: We have video evidence of CRT trained professors doing exactly that

Point 2? We'll come to that later.

I also found a common misdirection projected by the right is their passion for quoting Martin Luther Kings line “That individuals should be viewed by the content of their character instead of the color of their skin “ all the while ignoring the context of the quote and true meaning of it.

That's because that is the bit of the speech that most resonates strongly with people.

I've seen people on the Right talk about the context of that speech, that King was absolutely right to point to the Constitution and say that this applies to 'We the People' and that they (the African American population) is included in that statement.

He talks about cashing bad cheques and a debt to be paid - but this is metaphorical, not reparations. MLK simply wanted the freedoms of the Constitution to apply equally.

And what a beautiful idea that is.

Much is made by the right of the fact that CRT has ahem, “deep Marxist roots”. To my way of thinking – why would that be so surprising? Why would the oppressed be expected to follow their oppressors political system? It sure had not worked for them up to that point. My view is, so what. Just because the roots of CRT were born of Marxists, this fact does not disqualify or dilute the point of CRT in any way. It is something that should be looked at and addressed. As mentioned in other posts, I do not give a crap where a good idea comes from, but rather that any good idea should be judged on it's merits.

So here is where we come back to several of those skipped points.

I've thought how best to answer this - so here goes:

If you tell me that you are playing chess, then I will take you at your word that you are playing chess. Therefore when you move your opening pawn, I might not have a disagreement with that move in a conceptual sense, you have to make a move and opening with a pawn is the most common opening...

But I know, because you've told me that you are playing chess that every move you make is a means to an end - that is Checkmate.

And so I do not trust any move that you make on the board, because I know what your ultimate goal is - Checkmate and victory.

Likewise, when Gramsci writes his theories that the Western Anglosphere nations have a fundamental trust in their institutions because they are mostly uncorrupt (mostly is doing some heavy lifting here...) and that this is what stops the glorious Revolution from happening, then theorizing that in order to achieve the Glorious Revolution, those institutions must be undermined and critiqued (perhaps by way of a Critical study/Critical theory...)

When modern scholars cite Gramsci and these specific theories, they've told me what their end game is: To undermine a western institution to usher in a glorious communist revolution.

Since I like food, freedom and not-communism, I'm opposed to this end-game - so I oppose any and every move made.

However, if you'd like an intellectual refutation:

None of the ideas in CRT (or Intersectionality for that matter) were statistically derived. No Hypothesis was written and then tested with an experiment - it's literally a bunch of overpaid communist activists saying:

"I think the world is like this" and a bunch of sycophantic also communist activists braying like nodding Donkeys along with it.

However, if you'd like a Political Refutation:

How's all that Marxism worked out in Africa? Has it made those nations richer or poorer? And if poorer, does it not follow then, even accepting every evil of colonialism at face value, it did, in fact, 'work for them'.

Now the radical leftists have if course - as ever played right into the right leaning agitators hands by coming up with equally distorted versions of what CRT is and how it should be taught in schools. Some teachers have been especially moronic and taught white children that racism is all their fault and they are personally accountable of all their ancestors dastardly deeds. This if course is entirely reprehensible, and the sugilite solution is to sack them, or at the very least suspend them pending further “education” metered out by people who actually know what CRT is and only under supervision and careful monitoring, let them teach once more – though I do prefer the sacking option.

I mean, this is essentially a No True Scotsman.

If you read deep enough into CRT/Anti-Racism etc. you will see that this is the ultimate conclusion of the theory, it is the same ultimate conclusion of all Marxist theory.

Viewing one group as an oppressor and accepting that it is justified to hate your oppressor, then that is the only conclusion.

You cannot teach CRT without that happening.

I feel it is important that some aspects of CRT could be incorporated into an educational framework that acknowledges the injustices that were historically placed upon black people, and how that, yes laws do have aspects of racism still baked into them to this day. That though they the students do not bear responsibility as such, rather that society in general does owe it to itself to update these laws to bring more balance into them to better govern all people - irrespective of skin color and race. While it is hardly a getting white students to do the “walk a mile in anthers shoes” gig, it at least can show them that paths different from their own exists. And other groups of people had in effect been forced to walk that alternative path based on outdated laws and ordinances.

This educational framework must be closely monitored to avoid misrepresentation by both the left and right injecting their political agendas which if course would just inject a whole new bunch of injustices for people to deal with. And I mean this monitoring would need to be put in place right from the top educational administrators and law makers right down to the classroom level.

You could accomplish all the positives you seek, without using CRT once.

And as above - you cannot divorce CRT from it's conclusion, despite your best good-faith attempts.

Well certainly in order to do so it will need to get over this class war of hatred being fueled by the opposing political divides and associated media companies - all in the name of garnering power for the pollies and the almighty advertising dollars for the media companies. So there is that to overcome along the way.

Hmmm....

Who was it that talked about agitating the classes into some form of Class war? Something about the Proletariat and bourgeoisie? Or was it 'Eat the rich?' or perhaps it was 'all I want for Christmas is White Genocide'...

I forget....

Yuri Bezmenov told us, back in the 80s that this is what was going to happen.
Orwell told us in the 40s that this was going to happen.

[TheDemonLord]

If it wasn’t for KB I would have never heard of CRT.

Neither would have I

Only if your kids are going to study law at a US university and then only if they want to.

But you have heard of the downstream effects of CRT (or Praxis to use the Marxist parlance).

Pritch in particular - for it was your rep comment that helped me find that post back 2018.

You've heard of DIE, right? Diversity Inclusion and Equality? What about De-colonizing?

They all have their roots in the same cesspit.