Mayor Wayne Brown

[TheDemonLord]

Brown is not the CEO, he's the equivalent of a chairman of the board. His primary reponsibilities are policy and finance, neither of which will be directly influenced by anybody on the factory floor.

I think wasting ratepayers money falls firmly under Policy and Finance

As for privatised services being cheaper I will offer electricity. I still recall the lying prick of a minister standing there announcing that selling off the assets that we owned would make electricity cheaper. Never mind that whoever bought the assets needs to borrow the money, so they'll be paying interest which puts the price up. Then the shareholders wasn't to be paid so that puts the price up again. Previously the resources were managed strategically so that we didn't run out of power. Now they don't care about that, they just use whichever resource is cheaper so as to maximise profit. It doesn't matter if the southern lakes get drained, they'll just claim it's a one in twenty year drought and put the price up again.

Now, before I talk about this - There is a case to be made that Electricity is a natural monopoly - the main issue that would drive price up or down is the generation of Electricity - and that is something that represents a large-scale project.

So, after reading through the document provided by pete376403 - there were 3 things that jumped out at me:

1: It doesn't really talk about Power Generation - there is literally one line in it - where it correctly points out that you can't really have competing Generators of Electricity that can be bid on. I'll expand on this in a moment

2: It doesn't reference that since the 1980s the prevalence of Electronic devices in the Private home has significantly increased - You'll note from the graphs they provided that Commercial costs decreased (More efficient commercial power usage) and Industrial stayed about the same, with a slight decrease - but Residential has gone right up - think of all the electrical devices that have come into our homes since the 80s - Computers, Air Conditioning, Devices of every shape and flavor - The residential house of today has significantly more draw required than the house of the 80s.

3: Migration and increased population - More People, More Power - simple as.

But getting back to Generation for a moment - I had a look from Wikipedia about Power Generation in NZ - I see a lot of new power stations being built in the 70s and 80s, and lots of 'green energy' generation being built from the 2000s onwards.

What we have seen in Europe when we compare France and Germany is that France (who kept their Nuclear power generation) has done a lot better than Germany that opted for the 'green' route. Green electricity generation has it's own set of unique problems - and one of them (excluding Geothermal) is that it isn't reliable - No wind or no Sun? No power.

The paper asserts that all of these increases of costs are due to the evil shareholders rubbing their hands with glee, whilst trying to screw over the...

Wait a minute... I've heard this before...

Let me check...

Oh...

Depends on your view of Government
• Marx: “committee of the bourgeoisie”

Ah, that explains it.

And for bonus points - they are doing the ol' Social Democrat Switcheroo.

Now - all of this isn't to say that the example you give doesn't have some valid points - as I've acknowledged, I think power generation is a natural monopoly, you cannot have multiple competing generator plants that sell to a bidder to keep prices down - it simply doesn't work. So from that view - there's a point at which I agree that privatization of the Electrical grid is somewhat of a fools errand - I say somewhat because there are other improvements - such as the time it takes to get a house connected.

However, it's also to say that there are other factors which weigh more heavily on the cost of power - those being our attempt to transition to renewable energy sources that are not as reliable as non-renewable sources, the increase in our population and the increase in demand for power.

[TheDemonLord]

On the privatisation topic. Water has been privatised in UK. Currently it is cheaper for the water companies to dump raw sewage into the english channel and pay fines and spread the difference over the shareholders, than it is to fix the sewage systems, despite the government regulators insisting they are 'coming down very hard" on the offenders. NACT will soon be insisting that privatisation of water will be the only way that Aucklands water problems can be resolved, which is why they are campaigning so hard (on behalf of the their wealthy backers) against Three Waters.
https://www.theguardian.com/environm...by-water-firms (Yes, TDL, it's from the Guardian, but the numbers are what matters)

Yes, it is the Guardian - and on the balance of probability, they are lying through their teeth.

However - here's a question that I did not see addressed anywhere in the article:

What are the compliance costs to fix the Sewage Systems?

Take London for example - Joseph Bazalgette did an extraordinary job of creating the London Sewage system... In Victorian England. Now, it's a seriously impressive bit of work (and if you haven't there are some excellent documentaries about him and his work. He didn't have to worry about NIMBYs and Council by-laws, Health and Safety, Planning Permission etc. etc.

He had the sort of power to get shit done that people like me would wholesale object to - but none-the-less - my point being that we have created a rod for our own backs - we have made the cost of fixing the actual problem prohibitively expensive, so that it is cheaper to pay the fine, then we complain as to why it's all so expensive.

[pritch]

I think wasting ratepayers money falls firmly under Policy and Finance



Now, before I talk about this - There is a case to be made that Electricity is a natural monopoly - the main issue that would drive price up or down is the generation of Electricity - and that is something that represents a large-scale project.

So, after reading through the document provided by pete376403 - there were 3 things that jumped out at me:

1: It doesn't really talk about Power Generation - there is literally one line in it - where it correctly points out that you can't really have competing Generators of Electricity that can be bid on. I'll expand on this in a moment

2: It doesn't reference that since the 1980s the prevalence of Electronic devices in the Private home has significantly increased - You'll note from the graphs they provided that Commercial costs decreased (More efficient commercial power usage) and Industrial stayed about the same, with a slight decrease - but Residential has gone right up - think of all the electrical devices that have come into our homes since the 80s - Computers, Air Conditioning, Devices of every shape and flavor - The residential house of today has significantly more draw required than the house of the 80s.

3: Migration and increased population - More People, More Power - simple as.

But getting back to Generation for a moment - I had a look from Wikipedia about Power Generation in NZ - I see a lot of new power stations being built in the 70s and 80s, and lots of 'green energy' generation being built from the 2000s onwards.

What we have seen in Europe when we compare France and Germany is that France (who kept their Nuclear power generation) has done a lot better than Germany that opted for the 'green' route. Green electricity generation has it's own set of unique problems - and one of them (excluding Geothermal) is that it isn't reliable - No wind or no Sun? No power.

The paper asserts that all of these increases of costs are due to the evil shareholders rubbing their hands with glee, whilst trying to screw over the...

Wait a minute... I've heard this before...

Let me check...

Oh...



Ah, that explains it.

And for bonus points - they are doing the ol' Social Democrat Switcheroo.

Now - all of this isn't to say that the example you give doesn't have some valid points - as I've acknowledged, I think power generation is a natural monopoly, you cannot have multiple competing generator plants that sell to a bidder to keep prices down - it simply doesn't work. So from that view - there's a point at which I agree that privatization of the Electrical grid is somewhat of a fools errand - I say somewhat because there are other improvements - such as the time it takes to get a house connected.

However, it's also to say that there are other factors which weigh more heavily on the cost of power - those being our attempt to transition to renewable energy sources that are not as reliable as non-renewable sources, the increase in our population and the increase in demand for power.

Blah blah blah. None so blind... You claim an IQ of 130 but you have long consistently operated at marginally above half that. Sorry, I'm just tired of your intentional idiocy.

[F5 Dave]

Does he? Well he's obviously smarter than I am..

unless of course he is deluded and he's actually a sad pom.

Sad sad English halfwit.

Wah wah wah. But I wanted to he important. Afterall look at my skin isnt that enough?

He's on ignore as he's a complete turkey. Geez after the pastings Sugi has given him you'd think he'd learn not to put his fat head above the parapet where it was an easy target.

[1/32 man]

In defence of TDL he does use big words and lots of them.
He is capable of writing a fine argument and can make good points on things....the problem for me is I cannot be bothered reading long replies.

It wouldnt surprise me if TDL was a Russian troll or a bot or maybe a politician working under cover.

[TheDemonLord]

Blah blah blah. None so blind... You claim an IQ of 130 but you have long consstently operated at marginally above half that. Sorry, I'm just tired of your intentional idiocy.

Okay then Pritch - here's the simple version:

Increase in average usage per-household = move the demand curve to the right
Increase in the number of households = move the demand curve to the right

Without an equal increase in supply, this means price goes up. Simple supply and demand curves. Not evil shareholders, just basic economics.

There's some other things of interest - look at where we get our power from over time, In the 70s it was mostly all hydro - if we look at the generation in the mid 90s, there's a big spike in Hydro power generation and there's a corresponding dip in average price.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_Dam

Oh look, 400 MW generation capacity, Commissioned in 1992, but filling the dam took a whole year.

There's been no signigicant hydro dam built (e.g. over 10 MW of generation) since.

The biggest factor in the increase in price is not evil shareholders. It's a failure to build large, efficient power stations.

[TheDemonLord]

In defence of TDL he does use big words and lots of them.
He is capable of writing a fine argument and can make good points on things....the problem for me is I cannot be bothered reading long replies.

It wouldnt surprise me if TDL was a Russian troll or a bot or maybe a politician working under cover.

Da Tovarisch! Nyet! Nyet! Vodka!

Well, I am completely fluent in Russian.... but no, not a Russian Troll, definitely not a Bot and whilst I'm fine with insults, calling me a politician is a bit below the belt.

[TheDemonLord]

Does he? Well he's obviously smarter than I am..

unless of course he is deluded and he's actually a sad pom.

Sad sad English halfwit.

Wah wah wah. But I wanted to he important. Afterall look at my skin isnt that enough?

He's on ignore as he's a complete turkey. Geez after the pastings Sugi has given him you'd think he'd learn not to put his fat head above the parapet where it was an easy target.

And yet, in time, I've been vindicated on many of the points that have been raised against me. Now, I've said on multiple occassions, I like Sugi and I think he makes good points, he has well written and thought out views - I happen to disagree with some of them - but of late, the difference between Me and Sugi isn't as big as you think.

And I again make the comment - for someone who says they have me on Ignore, you sure do like to mention me directly or indirectly.

[neels]

Increase in average usage per-household = move the demand curve to the right
Increase in the number of households = move the demand curve to the right

Without an equal increase in supply, this means price goes up. Simple supply and demand curves. Not evil shareholders, just basic economics.

Incorrect.

When the power industry was dismantled and privatised, prices went up immediately. Overnight. No change in demand.

Where I lived at the time the local power authority/retailer also had generation, and was a trust owned by it's customers. After the 'reforms' that structure wasn't allowed any more, so power bills almost doubled immediately, and the trust dividend every year of January and some of February power bill being free disappeared.

It's seems pretty obvious that adding a bunch more boards, management structures, corporate overheads and shareholder dividends to the cost of selling the same commodity you already had is going to make it more expensive.

[pritch]

Incorrect.

When the power industry was dismantled and privatised, prices went up immediately. Overnight. No change in demand.

Where I lived at the time the local power authority/retailer also had generation, and was a trust owned by it's customers. After the 'reforms' that structure wasn't allowed any more, so power bills almost doubled immediately, and the trust dividend every year of January and some of February power bill being free disappeared.

It's seems pretty obvious that adding a bunch more boards, management structures, corporate overheads and shareholder dividends to the cost of selling the same commodity you already had is going to make it more expensive.

And they immediately upped the supply charge as a proportion of the bill so you'd still have a largish bill even if you were making efforts to minimise energy use.

[F5 Dave]

Were not in the business of being in business I believe some govt twat stated.

I mean it was all sadly predictable and played out exactly as youd expect. Public gets screwed.

[Laava]

Afterall look at my skin isnt that enough?
.

It is very thick tho. Skin I mean. But yes, most of us have him on ignore…

[TheDemonLord]

Incorrect.

When the power industry was dismantled and privatised, prices went up immediately. Overnight. No change in demand.

Well.... I'm using the website posted by pete376403 as a reference here - even though it's got tainted by it's Marxist leanings - it shows a different picture - a steady increase of prices starting from the lowpoint of 1983 onwards. Some of the biggest capacity Hydro stations came online in the late 70s early 80s - Ohau for example. Huntly also came online in the early 80s.

After that, the price started to rise pretty constantly and that price rise preceeds the beginning of the restructuring.

Where I lived at the time the local power authority/retailer also had generation, and was a trust owned by it's customers. After the 'reforms' that structure wasn't allowed any more, so power bills almost doubled immediately, and the trust dividend every year of January and some of February power bill being free disappeared.

None of which I'm going to dispute - I'm talking about the national averages here - I can't comment on a specific situation.

It's seems pretty obvious that adding a bunch more boards, management structures, corporate overheads and shareholder dividends to the cost of selling the same commodity you already had is going to make it more expensive.

Which is the larger Board and Management structure? A Company or the Government?

[pete376403]

TDL, I believe you have some expertise in database manipulation, so that should make it relatively easy for you to get the appropriate numbers from a reputable source, eg NZ Govt Stats, and put together a chart showing us all how much better off we are as a result of the electricity reforms

[F5 Dave]

He can barely manipulate his penis. Besides, he clearly has no interest in seeking the truth. It's much quicker to spout nonsense whilst convincing yourself that you know better than everyone else including so called 'experts' who are probably on the payroll of the lizard people