The Passion of the Christ

[Ms Piggy]

Celtic_Sea_lily, I hope that you're not saying that they had it tough in those days, criminals were really punished, radicals disposed of . . . . .

No Mangell,
In the interview that Mel Gibson did with Diane Sawyer they also had a minister or some such type saying about how he found the level of violence in the movie really offensive and said something about how it wasn't written that way in the bible ie. with a violent description. Therefore he was kiinda saying that Mel Gibson'd version of it was OTT b/c the bible doesn't have all that detail.
So what I was saying (as the lovely Mel himself stated) was that crucifiction isn't a pretty thing and of course it would have been very violent and nasty.

Does that make sense? Is that what you were wanted clarified or have I missed the point entirley?

But, I guess what you have said is what happened sometimes and I think still happens today...sometimes, in certain parts of the world at least.

[Zed]

it will be a dvd by the time i watch it

If you are intending on seeing it Dan, please go and watch it on the BIG screen...it is a very powerful movie for anyone with any ounce of spiritual consciousness! Satan even makes several guest appearances.

[wkid_one]

ummm eerrrr NO

[Zed]

...it wasn't written that way in the bible ie. with a violent description. Therefore he was kiinda saying that Mel Gibson'd version of it was OTT b/c the bible doesn't have all that detail.
So what I was saying (as the lovely Mel himself stated) was that crucifiction isn't a pretty thing and of course it would have been very violent and nasty.

Mel's depiction of this Biblical account was very scripturally accurate and not over emphasized!...the "minister" in that interview who claimed that it was has obviously not studied his Bible:


Isaiah 53:5-8 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men.

John 19:31-37 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

Matthew 26:65-68 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death. Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands, Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Matthew 27:29-31 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews! And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.

Luke 22:63-65 And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had blindfolded him, they struck him on the face, and asked him, saying, Prophesy, who is it that smote thee? And many other things blasphemously spake they against him.


Zed

[Zed]

ummm eerrrr NO

That's doesn't measure up to your usual eloquent reply Cincinnati! :spudwave:

[James Deuce]

Can't enjoy sub-titled movies for some reason so I'll be passing on this one.

On the subject of crucifiction it wasn't normal practice to nail someone to a cross. From an anatomical perspective your hands couldn't support your upper body in this way as the weight of your upper body would cause the nails to rip through the flesh and soft tissue betwee your meta-carpals. If you nailed between the radius and ulna, that would work. With your feet the nail would slide up between your meta tarsals and wedge against your ankle bone, so that would work.

It was normal to tie people up to the cross and the cross was usually pretty rough, not a couple of nice 6"x2" planks as usually depicted. Death by suffocation was the normal way to go on a cross, as exhaustion means you can't hold yourself up and your extended arms restrict your breathing as they work as levers to constrict your upper body.

Icky way to go.

[Zed]

Thanks Zed,
...helloooooo, getting nails through your hands & feet & hanging thdre for a length of time isn't gonna be feel good & soft focussed!

An understatement indeed Celtic, apparently crucifixion was one of the most horrific, gruesome forms of capital punnishment:


Crucifixion: An Excruciating form of Execution
Crucifixion was a practice that originated with the Persians and was later passed on to the Carthaginians and the Phoenicians. The Romans perfected it as a method of capital punishment, which caused maximum pain and suffering over a significant period of time. In fact, the word "excruciate" (meaning, “to cause great agony, torment”) comes from the Latin for "from, or out of, the cross.”

Crucifixion: Jesus Faced a Horrible Death
Crucifixion typically began with a scourging or flogging of the victim’s back. The Romans used a whip called a flagrum, which consisted of small pieces of bone and metal attached to a number of leather strands. The number of blows given to Jesus is not recorded; however, the number of blows in Jewish law was 39 (one less than the 40 called for in the Torah, to prevent a counting error). During the scourging, the skin was ripped from the back, exposing a bloody mass of tissue and bone. Extreme blood loss occurred, often causing death, or at least unconsciousness. In addition to the flogging, Jesus faced severe beating and torment by the Roman soldiers, including the plucking of His beard and the piercing of His scalp with a crown of thorns.

After the flogging, the victim was often forced to carry his own crossbar, or patibulum, to the execution site. The patibulum could easily weigh 100 pounds. In the case of Jesus, the record shows that He may have carried His patibulum the distance of over two football fields. In a weak and tormented state, it’s no wonder the record establishes that Jesus needed a great deal of assistance. Once the victim arrived at the execution site, the patibulum was put on the ground and the victim was forced to lie upon it. Spikes about 7 inches long and 3/8 of an inch in diameter were driven into the wrists. The spikes would hit the area of the median nerve, causing shocks of pain up the arms to the shoulders and neck. Already standing at the crucifixion site would be the 7-foot-tall post, called a stipes. In the center of the stipes was a crude seat to “support” for the victim. The patibulum was then lifted on to the stipes, and the victim’s body was awkwardly turned on the seat so that the feet could be nailed to the stipes. At this point, there was tremendous strain put on the wrists, arms and shoulders, resulting in a dislocation of the shoulder and elbow joints. The position of the nailed body held the victim’s rib cage in a fixed position, which made it extremely difficult to exhale, and impossible to take a full breath. Having suffered from the scourging, the beatings and the walk with the patibulum, Jesus was described as extremely weak and dehydrated. He was probably losing significant amounts of blood. As time passed, the loss of blood and lack of oxygen would cause severe cramps, spasmodic contractions and probably unconsciousness.

Ultimately, the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. To breathe, the victim was forced to push up on his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs. As the body weakened and pain in the feet and legs became unbearable, the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain and exhaustion. Eventually, the victim would succumb in this way, becoming utterly exhausted or lapsing into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the stipes and inflate his lungs. Due to the shallow breathing, the victim’s lungs would begin to collapse in areas, probably causing hypoxia. Due to the loss of blood from the scourging, the victim probably formed a respiratory acidosis, resulting in an increased strain on the heart, which beats faster to compensate. Fluid would also build up in the lungs. Under the stress of hypoxia and acidosis, the heart would eventually fail. There are several different theories on the actual cause of death for Jesus. One theory is that there was a filling of the pericardium with fluid, which put a fatal strain on the ability of His heart to pump blood. Another theory states that Jesus died of cardiac rupture. Another theory is that Jesus' death was “multifactorial and related primarily to hypovolemic shock, exhaustion asphyxia and perhaps acute heart failure.” Regardless of the actual medical cause of final death, the historical record is very clear -- Jesus suffered numerous hours of horrible and sustained torture on the cross of Calvary.

Excerpts from http://www.allaboutgod.com/


Zed

[Zed]

Can't enjoy sub-titled movies for some reason so I'll be passing on this one.

Yes Jim, that's exactly what I presupposed before I saw it...but it was done exceptionally well, so good that I actually enjoyed the laborious reading of the subtitles this time! They made the overall theme more authentic.


Zed

[Racey Rider]

If you are intending on seeing it Dan, please go and watch it on the BIG screen...it is a very powerful movie for anyone with any ounce of spiritual consciousness! Satan even makes several guest appearances.

ummm eerrrr NO

Come on Wkid!
I'll shout ya to go!

PS.I haven't seen it myself, and will properly wait for the Vid to come out too.
But I have read the BOOK!

[MikeL]

Just for the record -
Crucifixion was the standard Roman method of execution for rebellious foreigners and slaves (it was not used for Roman citizens). The execution of Jesus has led to the perception that His crucifixion was somehow unique or special. Ghastly though His suffering may have been, it is worth remembering that thousands of others before and after suffered the same agony or worse. After the failed slave revolt of Spartacus, 5000 of the captured rebels were crucified, crosses being set up every 100 yards on the main highway south of Rome.
"Let them hate, provided they fear".
At least with Rome, you knew where you stood. And brutal though their repression of insubordination might have been, in religious matters they were remarkably tolerant. You could believe what you liked, and worship whom you wanted, provided you accepted the authority of the State. The early Christian Church, having survived (perhaps thrived on) martyrdom, once in a position of power, was quick to copy the Romans' methods...

[Lou Girardin]

Exactly, MikeL. Let's not forget the Inquisition. Murder and torture in the name of God. Hypocrites!

[James Deuce]

Yes Jim, that's exactly what I presupposed before I saw it...but it was done exceptionally well, so good that I actually enjoyed the laborious reading of the subtitles this time! They made the overall theme more authentic.


Zed

Hmm - may have to try then!

[Hitcher]

Optime scriptum est. It should slip out more often.

Which just goes to prove my point that Latin is a universal language which we should all go back to speaking. But somehow using it to order fries and a thickshake seems to demean somewhat the glory and grandeur of Roman civilization.

I was merely trying to demonstrate that Latin doesn't need to be a dead language. It is able to cope with most of the complexities of our modern world...

[SPman]

Exactly, MikeL. Let's not forget the Inquisition. Murder and torture in the name of God. Hypocrites!

Nobody forgets the Spanish Inquisition!

[Coldkiwi]

definitely a must see movie for me. I think I tend to gloss over the details that are in the bible about Christs death and I've had other christians tell me the movie really brings what Jesus went through home to them.

Subtitles don't worry me. I find I get used to them pretty quickly. Certainly beats having Jesus with an american twang.

As for the R16 rating, it sounds like its a good thing. Again, from older christians I know who have seen it, a lot of them think it should even be R18 if it gets reviewed. Only three people die (as opposed to the hundreds in many other movies) but the portrayal of suffering and pain is apparently quite graphic which makes it a lot more involvuing to the viewer.

Hope to see it this week or in the weekend