Shotguns?

[Sniper]

hmmm still going to have to go with the fact the due to the shap of most "rounds" that they would not be to stable flying backwards and would probally right themselves during flight

True, but the answer I was looking for was based on what way the barrel was threaded. As Stevo said, the range wouldn't be effected, the accuracy (Depending on the thread) would.

You are both right.

[scumdog]

nope it wont, a bullet is carefully designed to fly in one direction, the bullet would there fore flick round during falling and jab in to the ground front first.

try throwing a dart straight up they will fall point first most times

Eh? I don't think so Tonto -a bullet is heavier towards the rear so using your dart analogy it should fall bum first. (in actual fact they often start to tumble lazily as they fall)

BTW The only similarity between a dart and a bullet is that they're both missiles of sorts, most other shit about them is different.

[scumdog]

hmmm still going to have to go with the fact the due to the shap of most "rounds" that they would not be to stable flying backwards and would probally right themselves during flight

They would NEVER 'right themselves' until they stopped spinning!!

They most likely wouldn't travel as far, they might not be as accurate and throat erosion in the chamber would increase due to gas forcing its way past the tapered bullet nose as it left the cartridge.

[Wolf]

The reason some people say "I can group 1 inch at 50 yards" and another person can say "I tried that ammo, and it was crap" is because of harmonics. In other words badly tuned equipment will cause the rifle to vibrate like a tuning fork.

When you purchase that Rolls Royce of weapons, the Walther WA2000 sniper rifle, they ask you, in addition to which calibre you prefer, what weight of both projectile and powder and (I think) the profile of the projectile so that they may set up the rifle barrel and the sights so that where you aim, it hits. They test fire and adjust the weapon - tune it, as Stevo says - so that with your preferred rounds, you will get optimal performance from the weapon.

Many custom or handmade firearms are built around both the user and the (specific) bullet. It is assumed that the user is already adept at precision handloading and is not using out-of-the-box rounds.

Likewise, match-grade firearms are made for match-grade ammunition.

[Pixie]

nope it wont, a bullet is carefully designed to fly in one direction, the bullet would there fore flick round during falling and jab in to the ground front first.


try throwing a dart straight up they will fall point first most times

WRONG!!
The gyroscopic effect will maintain the orientation the projectile had when it left the muzzle,as long as it continues to spin.And at 180,000 rpm (for a 3000 fps round from a 1/12 barrel) that's a looong time.

[SARGE]

I wouldn't be so rash as to test someone from the forces.

alot of our training was CQB / combat shooting/ etc.. up close and personal , high stress situations stuff ( nature of the MOS..).. someone coming at me with a weapon means very little.. if i am armed i can group shots where ever i want them ( double tap.. anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice..)

if i am unarmed v. an armed opponant..i may take a few cuts/ whacks or various injuries but as my pop always told me..

" its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog.."

US Marines are well known worldwide for the killer instinct.. do your job and deal with the pain later.. i'll take a stab in order to get in close..

thats where it gets nasty

[ManDownUnder]

alot of our training was CQB / combat shooting/ etc.. up close and personal , high stress situations stuff ( nature of the MOS..).. someone coming at me with a weapon means very little.. if i am armed i can group shots where ever i want them ( double tap.. anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice..)

if i am unarmed v. an armed opponant..i may take a few cuts/ whacks or various injuries but as my pop always told me..

" its not the size of the dog in the fight, its the size of the fight in the dog.."

US Marines are well known worldwide for the killer instinct.. do your job and deal with the pain later.. i'll take a stab in order to get in close..

thats where it gets nasty

*mental note - don't piss SARGE off*

[Stevo]

Many custom or handmade firearms are built around both the user and the (specific) bullet. It is assumed that the user is already adept at precision handloading and is not using out-of-the-box rounds.

I am not bagging ALL out of the box rounds, some may (by chance) just happen to have the right amount of powder in the case to enable your equipment to fire very tight groups. Cos at the end of the day, it doesn't matter a toss what brand of case you are using. The most important things are: The case uniformity in a batch, projectile seating length (off the rifling), and the amount and type of powder used. Some brands of primer can supposedly be more consistent, but I have struggled to find variance in my testing.

Likewise, match-grade firearms are made for match-grade ammunition.

Close. Match grade ammunition is made for a match grade rifle. Tis easier to make ammo to suit a rifle than vice versa

[Sniper]

I will only use box rounds. Only cause of an unfortunate incident with loading my own. Doesn't matter to me, I could still hit the ace at 600 yards if I wanted to.

[Wolf]

I'm not dissing out of the box rounds - most of the better brands have pretty good consistency. I never got into handloading myself but when I visited the pistol club they said that if I went centrefire rather than .22 I would be better served to handload in the interests of precise consistency and economy. All of them there saved their brass for reloading.

I used the cheapest of the Eley .22lr target rounds in my old BSA target rifle - not exactly UIT grade but still very consistent and, face it, my rifle was not exactly a match grade Anshutz or Walther, either...

In my .243 hunting rifle I usually used Norma and for my .22 hunting rifles I used standard Winchesters in the semi-auto and "subsonic" (velocity below the speed of sound) for the bolt action as I have a moderator and I wanted to cut out the "travel noise" and further lessen the report.

[Wolf]

Any road, at the risk of getting vaguely back on topic. The 9mm is not, by any stretch of the imagination, the be-all and end-all of calibres. Nor is the .40 or the .45 - they each have their advantages and disadvantages and what suits one person will not necessarily suit another. Some may find they can never accurately master the .45 or they may find 10mm or .40 is prohibitively expensive to get in the requisite amount of practice to familiarise themselves with their weapons.

For all the stated weaknesses of the 9mm, the fact remains that it is cheap to feed - even good quality ammo is relatively cheap when compared with other calibres and there is a plethora of very cheap military grade ammo out there which, while it will not win you the UIT Centrefire event or nail perps 9 times out of ten, it will cost you fuck all to burn through a thousand or so rounds on the range and put you a fair few rounds worth of experience ahead of someone who spent the same dollar value on dearer .40 rounds.

For that reason, I would go with the 9mm, buy shitloads of cheap crappy ammo and a couple of boxes of good devastating ammunition, put the good shit in the safe at home and spend hours down at the range with the cheap stuff practising double-tapping and Mozambique patterns until such time as the weapon felt like an extension of my arm and I could accurately draw, aim and double-tap the CoM in under 1.5 seconds whilst making evasive manoeuvres (most people in this thread would know why.)

I would refine my technique later using a few of the more expensive rounds to get used to how they perform compared with the military surplus stuff and when carrying the firearm for protection or as part of a police/security job I would load up with the good, devastating rounds.

For my part, I would rather have accurate placement over supposedly devastating firepower with which I may miss because I couldn't afford to put the practice in.

The argument of the "best calibre" has raged on for years and I have read many reports written by proponents of various calibres where the point to various metrics that "prove" their point - according to all the evidence I've seen, it has been categorically proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are all better than each other...

More balanced reports say that bullet placement and the right projectile is more important than considerations of calibre - a couple of decent hydrashok rounds in the chest is going to fuck most people up regardless of whether it's a 9mm or a .40.

Sure, there will be those who're drugged out who'll shrug off the pain and carry on - but a firearm is not the magic wand you see in the movies where you point it, pull the trigger and it obliterates the baddies.

According to figures I've read, 85% of people shot by the cops in the course of their duties actually survive - most of them, however, were stopped from what they were doing... placed hors de combat by the trauma of being slammed in the CoM by a couple of high-speed, scientifically designed projectiles. Hydrostatic shock and decent placing can achieve a lot without actually killing.

At the end of the day, there are no hard and fast answers and people will still forge on regardless after taking several .45ACP and others will still die instantly from a .22lr that wasn't even intentionally aimed at them. There is no one "magic" calibre that will perform as desired under all situations for all people, any more than there's a "magic" firearm that suits all conditions or people.

Take the Glock. Go on take it, I don't want it. A great reliable, safe firearm. However, the angle between the line of the barrel and the grip does not suit me for an instinctive aim. With a Glock I swing my hand up into what feels like a comfortable, natural position and the pistol is pointing downwards. I have to tilt my wrist upwards to align the sights.

The Walther P99, Heckler and Koch P7, Walther P-38 - when I do the same with any of them, the sights are perfectly aligned, the line of the barrel is pointing at the target and not at the ground some distance in front of it.

[Sniper]

alot of our training was CQB / combat shooting/ etc.. up close and personal , high stress situations stuff ( nature of the MOS..).. someone coming at me with a weapon means very little.. if i am armed i can group shots where ever i want them ( double tap.. anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice..)

I did alot of that too. I still do CQB on Saturdays (sometimes). Good skills to learn although. I cannot keep up with my pistol training I would be pissed if I got stabbed though.

[scumdog]

I did alot of that too. I still do CQB on Saturdays (sometimes). Good skills to learn although. I cannot keep up with my pistol training I would be pissed if I got stabbed though.

I just threaten them with a clean pair of heels (and before manuboy has a go at me: no, not 4" spikes with red patent-leather uppers, it's running shoes I'm talking about )

[scumdog]

I've found the Glock to be as reliable as the dawn, some of the other names like the P38 and the P08 are a bit unreliable with less than optimum ammo.
But your right about the grip angle on a Glock - night shooting takes some thinking about so that you don't end up putting bullets at the stars.

But look at the magazine capacity!!

[Wolf]

I've found the Glock to be as reliable as the dawn, some of the other names like the P38 and the P08 are a bit unreliable with less than optimum ammo.
But your right about the grip angle on a Glock - night shooting takes some thinking about so that you don't end up putting bullets at the stars.

But look at the magazine capacity!!

Some of the P-38s were very unreliable, especially those made during the War. Post-War P1's (pretty much identical) were much more reliable - as to be expected from Walther GmBH. And, yes, at 8 rounds the magazine sucked.

The modern P99 has a 16-round capacity (cf the Glock 17's 19 rounds), no external hammer, double action semi-auto with a shit-load of inbuilt safeties, decocking lever, pretty much ambidextrous.

I prefer its fit to the Glock but the Glock is a bloody fine weapon. I'd just prefer not to have to hold my hand in an uncomfortable position in order to fire it. Bad enough at a human-sized target, so much worse when aiming at a tiny bullseye...