Shotguns?

**thehollowmen** · 29th November 2005, 21:59

Originally Posted by Timber020

9mm is generally a great round, works perfectly when put in the right place. The shotgun bean bags work well at disarming people

bwhahahahahahahahahhahahahha
You've been watching what movie?

Sure they hurt like hell but I saw a live demo where a guy raised and fire a pistol under a barrage of them. It was a 'does this work' type demo and no, a lot of things don't work when people are pumped up with endorphins / epinephrine and / or drugs.

In situations like this, the policeman has to look out for number one. You would too if you were in similar shoes and he was coming through the window at night armed... you'd shoot to kill, not leave any chance to get hurt back.

**scumdog** · 29th November 2005, 21:59

Originally Posted by Sniper

What guns are those? MP5's or is it a pistol version?

A Bushmaster, looks like the para-troop version of the M16, it's semi auto only though.

**ZorsT** · 29th November 2005, 22:02

Originally Posted by thehollowmen

you'd shoot to kill, not leave any chance to get hurt back.

So why is 9mm not enough?

a well placed .22 shot would drop the bastard pretty quick.

**scumdog** · 29th November 2005, 22:03

Originally Posted by T.W.R

its a 9mm wad cutter projectile in those rounds isn't it ?
the cops fired 5 shots only 3 hit & it took a big samoan to flatten the prick! at that range the projectile would still have been building up impact velocity.
FMJ isn't any good on soft tissue close up, just goes straight through. you need wad cutters (small hole in bloody big hole out)

bring in riot guns with buck shot! that will stop the psycho dicks! the bastards have more rights than the victims! the bloody nancy do gooders made sure of that

The bullets ain't wad-cutters, they're normally only used for target shooting,, the bullets used are Hydra-shok hollow-points.

'Building up impact velocity'?????????? The projectile has already done that as it exits the barrel - it's all slow-down after that!!!

**scumdog** · 29th November 2005, 22:05

Originally Posted by ZorsT

So why is 9mm not enough?

a well placed .22 shot would drop the bastard pretty quick.

"Well placed" is the crucial thing - imagine you have run to the car, run to the scene, been yelling at the offender, he's moving/changing direction of travel, you've not fired a shot for months etc ect - NOW do 'well placed'!!

**ZorsT** · 29th November 2005, 22:10

Originally Posted by scumdog

"Well placed" is the crucial thing - imagine you have run to the car, run to the scene, been yelling at the offender, he's moving/changing direction of travel, you've not fired a shot for months etc ect - NOW do 'well placed'!!

Thats a good point. Isn't that the whole idea of semi auto?

I'm not too sure about pistol use either. I've used a 9mm baretta in a firing range in Canada, and they are really hard to aim. They are, however, eaiser to carry around.

If the officers had been using rifiles would they have needed to fire 5 shots?

**scumdog** · 29th November 2005, 22:14

Originally Posted by ZorsT

Thats a good point. Isn't that the whole idea of semi auto?

I'm not too sure about pistol use either. I've used a 9mm baretta in a firing range in Canada, and they are really hard to aim. They are, however, eaiser to carry around.

If the officers had been using rifiles would they have needed to fire 5 shots?

Ya still have to think of where the 'extra' bullets go even if you don't hit the target - more of a problem with a semi-auto.

If the rifle (223) had been used then a good chance less shots would have been needed.

**thehollowmen** · 29th November 2005, 22:16

Originally Posted by ZorsT

So why is 9mm not enough?

a well placed .22 shot would drop the bastard pretty quick.

sure thing.. .22 would work but I don't wanna be the one stood up over a row of bodies and told "that wasn't placed well enough"

I'm just surprised they stopped at five.

a 9mm (browning) pistol round is a slowish, reasonably light slug. Sure it has disadvantages BUT the reason it is in service here is because we've followed Europe who adopted it because of the versitility between weapons.

But the upside of the 9mm for police use is it isn't a "hard kill" bullet. It won't penetrate walls very well like a larger or faster slug, it jackets and tumbles and slows considerably if you shoot it through a windscreen... That's good for police who protect the public, bad for military who don't care in the heat of battle.

Why we don't have the extra weapons that use 9mm I'm not too sure :-P

**T.W.R** · 29th November 2005, 22:16

Originally Posted by scumdog

'Building up impact velocity'?????????? The projectile has already done that as it exits the barrel - it's all slow-down after that!!!

the projectile speed is slowing down once it leaves the barrel sure! but the actual hitting power is still building for quite a wee ways after it leaves the barrel e.g .303 rifle = it effective kill zone is 80m - 150m with a 180grain S.P projectile where as at 10m-20m it will go straight through without doing much damage. shooting a few deer proved that in action

one good shot to the knee would have fixed the prick

**ZorsT** · 29th November 2005, 22:19

Originally Posted by scumdog

Ya still have to think of where the 'extra' bullets go even if you don't hit the target - more of a problem with a semi-auto.

If the rifle (223) had been used then a good chance less shots would have been needed.

Is that because the bullets may have been traveling faster?

Or is it because the shots may have been better placed?

**thehollowmen** · 29th November 2005, 22:22

Originally Posted by T.W.R

the projectile speed is slowing down once it leaves the barrel sure! but the actual hitting power is still building for quite a wee ways after it leaves the barrel e.g .303 rifle = it effective kill zone is 80m - 150m with a 180grain S.P projectile where as at 10m-20m it will go straight through without doing much damage. shooting a few deer proved that in action

That ain't building up velocity. That's traveling so fast it doesn't do the damage intended. Slicing neatly through without mushrooming or jacketing or any of those fancy flesh-shredding things

That is a hard kill bullet, would likely penetrate people / walls / more people ...
Ever heard about the hard kill bullets used on the bloody friday demonstrators?

**scumdog** · 29th November 2005, 22:22

Originally Posted by T.W.R

the projectile speed is slowing down once it leaves the barrel sure! but the actual hitting power is still building for quite a wee ways after it leaves the barrel e.g .303 rifle = it effective kill zone is 80m - 150m with a 180grain S.P projectile where as at 10m-20m it will go straight through without doing much damage. shooting a few deer proved that in action

Hmmm, I guess it's a moot point what it's called but I refer to it as 'projectile performance' instead of 'hitting power' - put a 130grn hollow-point in your 303 and then try it at 10 metres.

**scumdog** · 29th November 2005, 22:23

Originally Posted by ZorsT

Is that because the bullets may have been traveling faster?

Or is it because the shots may have been better placed?

Faster but lighter bullet with more violent expansion.

Of course better placement helps too!

**T.W.R** · 29th November 2005, 22:25

Originally Posted by scumdog

Hmmm, I guess it's a moot point what it's called but I refer to it as 'projectile performance' instead of 'hitting power' - put a 130grn hollow-point in your 303 and then try it at 10 metres.

been there done that with 140grn sierra S.Ps & the lighter grain is actually for longer range shooting mmm!