Shotguns?

[spudchucka]

The thing is, if they trained our cops better and stopped fucking around with suspending cops for doing their job, it might actually work and there would be less risk when the cops start carrying Bushmasters.

They have recently changed the firearms re-certification shoot from annually to six monthly. So at least now we get to go to the range twice a year.

[Swoop]

BTW those advocating .45ACP obviously haven't fired it. You'd be lucky to get 1 round on target with an M1911A1 let alone more.

Bollocks mate. It's the nut behind the trigger that does the work. Crap training = crap shooting = crap results.
The .45 is an amazing round, why do you think the US special forces are going back to it??????????

I advocate .45ACP because after thousands of rounds firing them I KNOW they are bloody accurate and reliable! - and at any distance out to 75yards.

My 5 cents +gst worth.

[Lias]

If the perp had a gun or bow, then sure, shot the fu*ker. But I don't buy that Police need to use a gun against a knife. They didn't used to. The knife welder has not change much.

I very nearly gave you red bling over this, but I decided that mearly talking our your arse doesnt warrant it.. But I definitly take issue with this.

I've had more than my fair share of runins with cops, and they arnt my favourite people but even I accept that its a coppers JOB to escalate force to contain the situation You are unarmed and a threat? they will taser/mace you. You are armed, they will shoot you. Its pretty simple really.

I challenge you to stand there, with some drugged up psycho running towards you with a knife in his hand, having stabbed 3 people and killed one already, and not want to put a bullet between the cunts eyes.

The fact they shot him 3 times using the "dont shoot to kill" policy and he still kept coming to my mind just reinforces that fact that its a bollocks policy and they really should be shooting to kill if their is a clear and present threat.

[ManDownUnder]

'Building up impact velocity'?????????? The projectile has already done that as it exits the barrel - it's all slow-down after that!!!

bugger - I thought it was that kids story where the little tow truck/train (something like that) keeps saying "I know I can I KNOW I can" - getting faster and faster as he goes.

And you go bringing ballistics and drag coefficients into it... sheesh. Common sense ruins a good story every time

[Swoop]

They have recently changed the firearms re-certification shoot from annually to six monthly. So at least now we get to go to the range twice a year.

So you now waste 2 days time?

You need to use them monthly if not weekly. I bet that AOS have daily training!

[Sniper]

BOLLOX!!! I have fired literally thousands of .45 rounds without ANY problems. The Smith & Wesson .45s are crap and misfeed/fire though. Your firearm needs to see a good gunsmith!
The stopping power of the .45 is unquestionable. This is where the 9mm is letting things down. The old maxim that "it's weight - NOT velocity" still holds true with pistol ammo. A bigger projectile travelling slower will do the business.
This is why you have to use a hollowpoint round to get a 9mm to do anything.

As I said, I have had problems with the .45. I don't like it. In my honest opinion and given the choise, I wouldn't carry it. I like 9mm, only because I have had less stoppages and other problems using it, but I really like the .357 but unfortunatly, its not as readily availible as 9mm.

[Sniper]

They have recently changed the firearms re-certification shoot from annually to six monthly. So at least now we get to go to the range twice a year.

Better than anually, but still not enough. But in all honesty, what do the cops think about firearms qualifications on the range. Not enough, too little?

[Swoop]

As I said, I have had problems with the .45. I don't like it. In my honest opinion and given the choise, I wouldn't carry it. I like 9mm, only because I have had less stoppages and other problems using it, but I really like the .357 but unfortunatly, its not as readily availible as 9mm.

Hmmm, .357 isn't bad! It's shorter brother the .38 is not any good for anything other than hitting paper targets with.

Read "Wings of the Eagle" by William T Grant. Vietnam huey pilot who wouldn't fly with his issued one. His dad was a NYC cop who had experience with them and disliked them immensely.
WT thought they would only be good for shooting out the hueys radios if he god shot down!

[Sniper]

IThe fact they shot him 3 times using the "dont shoot to kill" policy and he still kept coming to my mind just reinforces that fact that its a bollocks policy and they really should be shooting to kill if their is a clear and present threat.

I understand alot about the public thinking about this "shoot to kill" policy. There may be such a policy used elsewhere in the world, but if you had to enforce it, imagine the variables you would have to contend with.
Is the guy shooting back at you, is he 3 feet away and running, does he look like and in reality constitute a threat and you know you are in danger but there are others around?

1. Its flippin hard to hit someone in the head whois running at/away from you and generally, you need to be pretty proficient with a sidearm to hit a target that small, no matter how far away they are. And unfortunatly, that takes thousands of rounds and training to acheive

2. The general rule is only shoot at what you are most likely to hit. The old "Aim small, miss small" theory. You are 5 times more likely to hit someone in the torso with a shot than if you aimed for the head. People watch too many movies when they see that someone can just aim and hit you in the head

3. To kill someone with a torso shot, you have to hit the heart or fire a bucketload of bullets which in turn means the firer gets all these questions thrown at him on my he had to fire 5 bullets when 1 "in theory" should do.

Good on the cops for acting and shooting at the guy. Bad luck he isn't dead. It would be good to remove someone like that from our society.

[Sniper]

Read "Wings of the Eagle" by William T Grant. Vietnam huey pilot who wouldn't fly with his issued one. His dad was a NYC cop who had experience with them and disliked them immensely.

That was a good book. I have it at home.

[spudchucka]

So you now waste 2 days time?

You need to use them monthly if not weekly. I bet that AOS have daily training!

I agree. Monthly would be ideal but it won't happen because the department squirms at having to pay for the ammo we use in training days now. Personally I'd be happy to purchase my own box of ammo once a month and head out to the range for a little "group therapy". I believe the AOS training days occur monthly.

[spudchucka]

Better than anually, but still not enough. But in all honesty, what do the cops think about firearms qualifications on the range. Not enough, too little?

Most that I have spoken to on this issue would like to go to the range at least monthly. On night shift, (we do a week of nights once every five weeks), I usually spend a few hours stripping the weapon for familiarisation and practising basic handling drills.

[Sniper]

Most that I have spoken to on this issue would like to go to the range at least monthly. On night shift, (we do a week of nights once every five weeks), I usually spend a few hours stripping the weapon for familiarisation and practising basic handling drills.

Thats a good idea to learn your weapon.

[T.W.R]

When testing and chronographing my loads, the chronograph is not more than 10 yards in front of the rifle. The 155gr projectile is doing just under 3000 ft/sec. Not sure how you think it might accelerate after leaving the barrel?? Penetration is NOT an issue as I am a long range target shooter, so am more interested in finding loads that give the most consistent, readings and groups.

theres a huge difference between shooting in a controlled enviroment like a shooting range compared to shooting in the hunting enviroment of out in the bush & high country. at the range your target is set in place it isn't moving & the only thing you have to worry about at distance is windage & elevation. when your in the bush you often only have the chance of one effective kill shot & sometimes that shot may be the only one you'll fire for days, it has to be precise & efficent.

and as for saying the projectile accelerates after leaving the barrel ? who said that ? the impact damage isn't effective at close range & the only thing the projectile is increasing in is elevation when it leaves the barrel ( remember a projectile travels in an arc)

as for long range shooting, you should try chasing Thar & Chamios. and accuracy at distance has more to do with knowing your weapon & the rifling of the barrel. thats why target rifles have heavy gauge barrels with micro groove rifling ( the faster a projectile is spinning, the more accurate at distance it will be).

[tracyprier]

Indeed matey Diligentia Vis Celeritas!

It's not only the amount of firearms training (woefully little I believe) but also the TYPE of training. (unless things have changed with Police firearms training)

Traditional "standing still, firing at static targets in your own time" in no way prepares someone for what Masaad Ayoob termed, "stress-fire". Shooting at some drug-addled nutter bearing down on you with ANY sort of weapon.

And can we please dispense with this "shoot him in the leg/arm" nonsense. That is fit for the realm of bad cop movies only, NOT real life.

As for the effectiveness of the 9mm, I believe many Police departments in the USA have/are switching from 9mm to .40 S&W as it has greater knockdown capability with a higher mag capacity than the venerable .45acp.


[QUOTE=Swoop]This is the MAIN point!!! Any cop who has access to use a firearm MUST get the training required. None of this 1 day re-qualifying to still be able to use one. A minimum of IPSC shooting every month would be a good start.
What do you think the cop who fired a round while in central's holding cells was doing??? "re-qualifying" handling skills (obviously failed).

.